Coronavirus in Massachusetts (accommodation, concert, practice)

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by bohemka

I believe up-thread you mentioned something along the lines of trusting Dr. Fauci over some dude on an internet thread who's thinking for himself. I'll take your advice.

To be clear, Fauci hasn't really commented anything concrete at all about the Covid in kids thing. This is the only thing I've been talking about. There is no disagreement between me and Dr Fauci on this. I am providing research that I have seen that relates to it.

This is a lot to process for you. I know. Maybe come back this afternoon when you're feeling better.

[BostonMike7]

Originally Posted by NewfieMama

This is based on data through 5/8. I think we are at a statistically significant sample size now.

But, we don't know if "enough" children have been exposed. Right now, it seems that the brunt of the infected are those living in long-term care facilities, and those working in medical facilities. Children that do catch it, likely got it from a parent that brought it home from one of the aforementioned places.

We don't really have any data to show transmission occurring inside schools (were there any known widespread cases involving teachers/admins) or antibody testing to show that a significant population of children were exposed and recovered with no symptoms. For all we know, we got really lucky and there wasn't any significant school-related transmission at all. But, then again, flu was a major problem in schools back in Feb and I remember my wife telling me they had 6-8 teachers out at any one time with "flu-like symptoms" and it was the most she's ever remembered.

Schools were cancelled in march, and since then transmission has mostly been through long-term care and hospitals or unfortunately workers at grocery stores and such. When i'm out and about, I rarely see children at grocery stores, or retail stores. Our own kids haven't really been outside of the neighborhood since March other than a few random road-trips just to drive around and see things. Kids may be not getting as exposed as we think....or maybe they are?

I think i'm going to sit on the "inconclusive - more data needed" fence for now.

[bohemka]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

To be clear, Fauci hasn't really commented anything concrete at all about the Covid in kids thing. This is the only thing I've been talking about. There is no disagreement between me and Dr Fauci on this. I am providing research that I have seen that relates to it.

This is a lot to process for you. I know. Maybe come back this afternoon when you're feeling better.

Are you capable of commenting without insulting people?

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by charolastra00

Europe is opening schools because most of them had much stricter lockdowns that began earlier. That's why they have steeper downcurves while we are trapped in incredibly slow downslopes or, even worse, prolonged plateaus. Had we locked down more strictly, we would be better off long term. That ship sailed due to poor federal leadership. With the exception of Sweden, they have the disease far and away better than the US does. They've reopened schools because they have it under control. Hopefully, we have it under control in the fall but with the premature reopenings and complete lack of common sense many are showing regarding social distancing and masking, I'm not holding my breath.


Sweden is an outlier, but Sweden also has a dramatically different culture than the US. They have a much healthier population given that their entire population has always had access to healthcare, and they have the highest percentage of people living alone. Multigenerational families is very uncommon. Elementary school kids are incredibly unlikely to bring home illness to their grandparents. People over 70 are strictly sheltering in place.


If you live in Ohio (my condolences), why are you posting in a Massachusetts forum?

If we do not have enough data to say that we know how Covid effects kids, then who does? How can Europe make that call? It isn't necessarily about new cases or down turns etc, it's specifically about how it could develop in kids. This is what I'm referring to. We do not have evidence that it is particularly dangerous to children. opening schools, by the logic I see here, would accelerate this. Europe is moving in that direction and thus would experience this very soon. A previous downturn in cases would suddenly jump up if these theories are true and particularly these severe effects in children.

I lived in Massachusetts for 7 years btw. You'll notice I haven't posted here much at all since I left. This thread in particular interested me because of the topic. My life has improved greatly being home in Cleveland, thank you for your concern.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by bohemka

Are you capable of commenting without insulting people?

The irony is too much! You guys all started the insults with the "he's from Ohio" unbelievably sound argument.

[porterhouse]

Originally Posted by redplum33

Schools are community settings.

And even though schools were the first to get shut down, I'd argue that every state waited too long to shut them down...and, if it had been done sooner, the total number of deaths would be a fraction of what it is.

This is pure speculation. I've yet to see any studies or data that remotely support this. However there have been a few that show zero evidence of children spreading this virus to their parents.

I agree shutting schools was a prudent move at the time, but what you are posting is just not supported in any way at this point.

[jayrandom]

Originally Posted by BostonMike7

But, we don't know if "enough" children have been exposed. Right now, it seems that the brunt of the infected are those living in long-term care facilities, and those working in medical facilities. Children that do catch it, likely got it from a parent that brought it home from one of the aforementioned places.

We don't really have any data to show transmission occurring inside schools (were there any widespread cases involving teachers/admins) or antibody testing to show that a significant population of children were exposed and recovered with no symptoms. For all we know, we got really lucky and there wasn't any significant school-related transmission at all...yet.

Schools were cancelled in march, and since then transmission has mostly been through long-term care and hospitals or unfortunately workers at grocery stores and such. When i'm out and about, I rarely see children at grocery stores, or retail stores. Our own kids haven't really been outside of the neighborhood since March other than a few random road-trips just to drive around and see things. Kids may be not getting as exposed as we think....or maybe they are?

I think i'm going to sit on the "inconclusive - more data needed" fence for now.

As someone who lives on the "inconclusive - more data needed" fence, it's important to recognize that more data is always needed.

It's pretty clear that symptomatic transmission has occurred mostly in the settings you've mentioned. Clearly there is community transmission, because plenty of adults seem to be getting sick. You'd have to posit some child-avoiding transmission mechanism to explain the low rates of infection in children. I can't speak for other families, but I'm the grocery shopper and I have not self-isolated from my kids (not that I could if I wanted to). That's not to say it's impossible kids just haven't been exposed, but it's less likely to be false than it is to be true.

No one is saying schools should re-open this school year. That ship has sailed. We need to start discussing when schools should re-open and that discussion needs to happen now. The decision doesn't need to be made for months. Of course the available evidence is insufficient, but when you hear reports of schools being cancelled for the next year school year, one would also question on what basis that decision is being made. I don't think there's sufficient evidence to say schools will 100% be open in fall, but there's not sufficient evidence to start cancelling school in fall, either.

[jayrandom]

Originally Posted by porterhouse

This is pure speculation. I've yet to see any studies or data that remotely support this. However there have been a few that show zero evidence of children spreading this virus to their parents.

I agree shutting schools was a prudent move at the time, but what you are posting is just not supported in any way at this point.

The real issue here I think is that people usually use their opinions to inform their evidence instead of evidence to inform their opinions. When scientific evidence agrees with what you think, science is great. When it is counter to what you think, the study is flawed or "we need more evidence". This problem is even bigger when scientists themselves haven't reached a consensus. People usually only deal with mostly 'settled' science that has been debated and tested and confirmed over years or even decades. It can be presented with some authority as "the answer" with the certainty required of our political system.

COVID-19 is not in that category. People struggle to deal with 'authorities' that change their mind or are just flat out predicting things that are wrong. Whatever your bias, you can likely find some not-unreasonable authority that agrees with you.

[charolastra00]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

If we do not have enough data to say that we know how Covid effects kids, then who does? How can Europe make that call? It isn't necessarily about new cases or down turns etc, it's specifically about how it could develop in kids. This is what I'm referring to. We do not have evidence that it is particularly dangerous to children. opening schools, by the logic I see here, would accelerate this. Europe is moving in that direction and thus would experience this very soon. A previous downturn in cases would suddenly jump up if these theories are true and particularly these severe effects in children.

I lived in Massachusetts for 7 years btw. You'll notice I haven't posted here much at all since I left. This thread in particular interested me because of the topic. My life has improved greatly being home in Cleveland, thank you for your concern.

Again, countries that are reopening schools have covid-19 under control. They are also requiring 6 feet of distance in the classroom (how does that work in the average classroom with 25 students on top of each other) and students wear masks (how does that work when parents here claim they can't wear them, much less teach their kids to wear them?). There's not much reason right now to think that the US will have it under control in the fall given our actions right now. Germany, for instance, has reopened schools for older students but they have incredibly widespread testing and less than 1000 people per day are being diagnosed in a country of 83 million.



I lived in Georgia for 18 years but it would be weird to post about my negative opinion about how they're handling coronavirus, even though my best friend is an ICU nurse in their biggest hospital and my parents still live there. Knowing that they'd mishandle big issues was one of the reasons why I left, I just didn't anticipate mishandling such a crisis on such a huge level.

[porterhouse]

If mask wearing is actually critical, I am concerned about our prospects in this area. I did a few overdue errands yesterday and ran across several examples of people not wearing masks in close quarters. Most of these were "essential" workers. At the parts department of a Boston area auto dealership, the clerk helping me was wearing a mask but no less than 3 technicians from the service department came in to the close area wearing no masks. I was thankful I had paid ahead and was just picking up my parts quickly. At a restaurant last night there were several staff members sitting together not wearing masks when I went in for the pickup. They all put them on shortly after I entered.

I get that wearing masks is inconvenient and will get worse as the wether gets warm, however is it essential or not? As we prepare to allow more businesses to open, those employees are the most likely to acquire and spread the virus. It is somewhat concerning.