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I just might set up a forum of this nature at some point. I'll let you all know.
Do you know what I did regarding my family? I told them. I told them everything. I just started really crowing about what really went on in my house.
I was taken out of the house when I was 14 and my parents never got me back. Well, they were pillars of the community -- especially the church -- and they had to scramble. So they made up stories. Wild stories. I have a cousin that swears that they told her I had been driven to a life of prostitution.
Really? At 14? In a town of about 12,000? And about a couple of hours away from a city? So why didn't they just fetch me?
Anyway, the stories were so crazy that I am sure most people didn't believe them but it took years to figure this all out. I had no idea what people thought. And as much as I knew my parents were nuts I had no idea HOW nuts they really were. You don't really come to grips with that stuff until years after.
So essentially they cut me off from the rest of the family. There was always that rift.
So when someone says, "But you are separating the children from the grandmother," you say, "And thank goodness for that. She did enough damage to her own child. I'm responsible for my children and I will not subject them to that."
Tell them.
What a narcissist clings to is that you won't tell. So tell.
And they do not see themselves as they really are. They never will see it. The world is wrong and they are always right.
But if you tell the rest of the world how she really is they will eventually "get" it. Or they won't. In which case, to heck with them.
Great posts! You are so right on about that "...you won't tell". That is their ace-in-the-hole. You're right. tell it! Shout it from the rooftops!
my family leaves me feeling like I'm drowning; the rest of the world; like I'm walkng in sunshine. And that's when I chose to walk away emotionally with very little contact at all....
YES! That is such a good description!!! Interactions with my family are completely draining, suffocating, negative, etc. Then I leave (or hang up, or hit delete), and it's like I can breathe again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster
I just might set up a forum of this nature at some point. I'll let you all know.
That would be awesome! Definitely keep us posted if you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster
Do you know what I did regarding my family? I told them. I told them everything. I just started really crowing about what really went on in my house.
I was taken out of the house when I was 14 and my parents never got me back. Well, they were pillars of the community -- especially the church -- and they had to scramble. So they made up stories. Wild stories. I have a cousin that swears that they told her I had been driven to a life of prostitution.
Really? At 14? In a town of about 12,000? And about a couple of hours away from a city? So why didn't they just fetch me?
Anyway, the stories were so crazy that I am sure most people didn't believe them but it took years to figure this all out. I had no idea what people thought. And as much as I knew my parents were nuts I had no idea HOW nuts they really were. You don't really come to grips with that stuff until years after.
So essentially they cut me off from the rest of the family. There was always that rift.
So when someone says, "But you are separating the children from the grandmother," you say, "And thank goodness for that. She did enough damage to her own child. I'm responsible for my children and I will not subject them to that."
Tell them.
What a narcissist clings to is that you won't tell. So tell.
And they do not see themselves as they really are. They never will see it. The world is wrong and they are always right.
But if you tell the rest of the world how she really is they will eventually "get" it. Or they won't. In which case, to heck with them.
You are so right. The narcissist clings fiercely to all those soul-rotting secrets. Unfortunately my family knows and has known all along. My grandmother is also a narcissist (I think - she's not quite as clear cut and text book as my mom - but she is 100% cluster b), so my entire family of origin is in that mindset of orbiting around the narcissists. In fact, the aunt who called yesterday was routinely beaten by my mother when she was a child, and she is constantly defending her! Everyone in my family seems to think that because my mom doesn't beat me anymore that everything is fine. They figure OF COURSE she would never do anything to her grandchildren (makes perfect sense, right? ). They tell me I need to get over the past and let my mom's current bad behavior (lies, manipulation, etc) "roll off me." Please.
The other thing about my family (typically narcissist I think) is that they put the family unit above everything. Keeping the family together is more important than anything else, no matter who is hurt or how badly. That is why when my mom stole $70,000 from the business she shared with her sisters, they never bothered to press charges - or do anything for that matter. Me cutting contact with her has violated that sacred family rule of keeping the family together and keeping up appearances. I know I should probably cut contact with the whole family, because it is one big multi-generational, sickeningly enmeshed, self-contained heap of destructive dysfunction. I am talking about personality disorders, violence, crime, drug addiction, etc. I guess there is this part of me that thinks "can they all really be THAT bad???" That self-doubt begins to creep in.
*sigh* Sorry to rant. I really wish I could just write them all off, but in addition to that self-doubt (am I the crazy one???), it also takes A LOT of energy to maintain those boundaries, because they never stop trying to regain what has been their homeostasis for the past several decades.
Anyway, just want to thank everyone again. It would be nice to get an update from the OP. Hiknapster, it is awful what your parents did. They just threw you under the bus with their crazy stories so that they wouldn't look bad . Narcissists will literally stop at nothing to maintain that illusion. My mom is currently telling people something along the lines of "marmom is such a kind gentle soul, but for some reason she wants to remember things a lot worse than they really were" *sniff*
Classic! The narcissist is always the victim! Woe is them...
Yes, there are family members that will play into that situation. I have a cousin that had a poor household and two sisters. I grew up well-off and an only child. It infuriates her to hear that I am less than grateful for my abusive parents. Why? Because I am shattering her fantasy. For her, the brass ring was if she could only be me.
Family members do that stuff for their own personal reasons, often as a coping mechanism so that they don't have to face reality. And yes, a part of the dysfunctional illness is to keep the family sick, tight and together.
It's not you. Don't second guess yourself. I did that for about 47 years. Then one day I woke up and realized that I was worth everything they said I was not. They were sick, sad people with nary a kind word for anyone.
Ever notice how they almost chant? That they say the same stuff over and over about certain people? It's a form of brainwashing, like a cult.
I have no idea what came over me but listening to the same nasty words about my aunt, from my mother, suddenly snapped me out of it. Her sister had been dead for years but she was still ranting about her. And about what? That she liked to celebrate Christmas? That she liked to shop? That she loved her children?
Notice the pattern? She was really telling me that anyone that buys things for other family members has a screw loose. It's a great way to get out of buying things for other people. That way the narcissist can keep her money and buy things for herself!
It's all an elaborate con that they set up and have perpetuated for years.
I'll tell you what. I live far away from all of them and it is the best thing I've ever done. Moving away really gave me some much needed perspective.
My father came to visit last weekend, after a 3-year absence and I hope I never see him again.
Classic! The narcissist is always the victim! Woe is them...
Yes, there are family members that will play into that situation. I have a cousin that had a poor household and two sisters. I grew up well-off and an only child. It infuriates her to hear that I am less than grateful for my abusive parents. Why? Because I am shattering her fantasy. For her, the brass ring was if she could only be me.
Family members do that stuff for their own personal reasons, often as a coping mechanism so that they don't have to face reality. And yes, a part of the dysfunctional illness is to keep the family sick, tight and together.
It's not you. Don't second guess yourself. I did that for about 47 years. Then one day I woke up and realized that I was worth everything they said I was not. They were sick, sad people with nary a kind word for anyone.
Ever notice how they almost chant? That they say the same stuff over and over about certain people? It's a form of brainwashing, like a cult.
I have no idea what came over me but listening to the same nasty words about my aunt, from my mother, suddenly snapped me out of it. Her sister had been dead for years but she was still ranting about her. And about what? That she liked to celebrate Christmas? That she liked to shop? That she loved her children?
Notice the pattern? She was really telling me that anyone that buys things for other family members has a screw loose. It's a great way to get out of buying things for other people. That way the narcissist can keep her money and buy things for herself!
It's all an elaborate con that they set up and have perpetuated for years.
I'll tell you what. I live far away from all of them and it is the best thing I've ever done. Moving away really gave me some much needed perspective.
My father came to visit last weekend, after a 3-year absence and I hope I never see him again.
Oh goodness - you hit on so many good points. Things that never even registered on my radar, but were always there. Yes, the repetition and ranting over and over. It really is like brainwashing. I am still questioning and reframing so many things that my mom drilled into my head over the years. Badmouthing people for things that are actually normal and good is another one. It serves two purposes. Like you said, it justifies and rationalizes their abnormal behavior, and it also is a defense against their pathological jealousy. In the past several years I picked up on both my mother and grandmother being extremely jealous of others.
I want to move away too. I did in the past, and it was the only reason I am not still entangled in that mess today. It's the only way to gain perspective. I changed, and naively thought they could change too, so I moved back eventually. Now relocation can't come soon enough. People will argue that one should be able to deal with this stuff without "running away" but I think there is something to be said for a good amount of physical distance. No more ability for them to just "drop in," no running into family members when you're out, no more having to deal with "aren't you coming over for Thanksgiving" pressures, etc.
I understand your feeling of never wanting to see your father again. People who aren't intimately familiar with narcissism have a hard time understanding that kind of repulsion, especially with respect to a parent. It's how I feel toward my mother and pretty much the entire family.
Oh goodness - you hit on so many good points. Things that never even registered on my radar, but were always there. Yes, the repetition and ranting over and over. It really is like brainwashing. I am still questioning and reframing so many things that my mom drilled into my head over the years. Badmouthing people for things that are actually normal and good is another one. It serves two purposes. Like you said, it justifies and rationalizes their abnormal behavior, and it also is a defense against their pathological jealousy. In the past several years I picked up on both my mother and grandmother being extremely jealous of others.
I want to move away too. I did in the past, and it was the only reason I am not still entangled in that mess today. It's the only way to gain perspective. I changed, and naively thought they could change too, so I moved back eventually. Now relocation can't come soon enough. People will argue that one should be able to deal with this stuff without "running away" but I think there is something to be said for a good amount of physical distance. No more ability for them to just "drop in," no running into family members when you're out, no more having to deal with "aren't you coming over for Thanksgiving" pressures, etc.
I understand your feeling of never wanting to see your father again. People who aren't intimately familiar with narcissism have a hard time understanding that kind of repulsion, especially with respect to a parent. It's how I feel toward my mother and pretty much the entire family.
First of all, hugs all around for survivors and the seekers of understanding; it is not an easy path we travel (but as the saying goes, we all carry a burden ) but well worth it!!!!!
And marmon and hipknap, you are so right on...now, here's the million $$$ question: do you ever wonder how we all saw our family/parent for what they were? SCary for me and I shy away from the "religious/for a purpose" reasons some may adhere to when in a position such as ours but somedays, I swear that there HAS to be a reason we were so differently wired...or is it simply and wonderfully true that we were the turning point in a family of mental illness that will grace the generations to come???
And why does typing that make ME feel so narcissistic ???????????
As for moving away, it is my biggest regret that I did not see clearly enough years ago to see how twisted this family was and move far far far away.....but regrets are a waste of time and I try to toss that thought out of my mind as quick as it enters....but I'm sure the healthier part of me would have emerged sooner if I hadn't stayed so physically close to them all....
This thread has lifted my spirits immensely and I think a spin-off forum would be fabulous!!!!
Peace and contentment to all.....
Last edited by Fallingwater79; 07-23-2011 at 07:27 AM..
Badmouthing people for things that are actually normal and good is another one. It serves two purposes. Like you said, it justifies and rationalizes their abnormal behavior, and it also is a defense against their pathological jealousy. In the past several years I picked up on both my mother and grandmother being extremely jealous of others.
Just had to add: this statement above is a description of my upbringing in a nutshell.....EVERYONE was jealous of us, I was told....everyone.......it was like poison on a plant causing it to shrivel and die instead of embracing the good in others.......Oh, and everyone had an ulterior motive to hurt me so add together: trust NO ONE and everyone is JEALOUS of you and you get one mixed up, sad little girl.....
And marmon and hipknap, you are so right on...now, here's the million $$$ question: do you ever wonder how we all saw our family/parent for what it was but they, in turn, saw US as the inbalanced ones? SCary for me and I shy away from the "religious/for a purpose" reasons some may adhere to when in a position such as ours but somedays, I swear that there HAS to be a reason we were so differently wired...or is it simply and wonderfully true that we were the turning point in a family of mental illness that will grace the generations to come???
And why does typing that make ME feel so narcissistic ???????????
Don't feel narcissistic. It took me about 46 years before I finally realized I was someone of worth.
That's the entire point of the thread. The young man thinks he's a narcissist because his mother is. He's been programmed to think it's him. Always him.
I really, really believed it was always me for 46 years. And do you know the sort of people I attracted because of that?
My current husband had a field day of grinding me into the ground. It was a very sad day for him when I got self-esteem. Uh-oh.
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As for moving away, it is my biggest regret that I did not see clearly enough years ago to see how twisted this family was and move far far far away.....but regrets are a waste of time and I try to toss that thought out of my mind as quick as it enters....but I'm sure the healthier part of me would have emerged sooner if I hadn't stayed so physically close to them all....
I broke off ties with my parents long before I moved. They had slowly stopped bothering, anyway. They divorced and needed me less and less for their devices. They rarely bothered with their grandchildren.
I moved away because of other reasons.
And bear in mind that if you move away you then run the risk of them visiting, perhaps for long periods of time, or worse.
My father visits far too often because of his new wife of ten years. She seems like a clueless soul and urges him to visit. I once told her to stop this but she just ignored it. Last time he was here he had a meltdown in my livingroom and she had the nerve to say, "Oh, he use to be worse."
Ya think? I've known him for almost 50 years so thanks for that news flash, lady.
I told her, yes, worse like when he use to beat my mother and me. She turned her head and changed the subject.
So moving won't always solve things. Draw a line in the sand where you are now. Being on these relocation forums that has become a "thing" with me, anyway. Far too many people dream of the way things could be if they could only get to here, wherever here is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smalltownusa
Badmouthing people for things that are actually normal and good is another one. It serves two purposes. Like you said, it justifies and rationalizes their abnormal behavior, and it also is a defense against their pathological jealousy. In the past several years I picked up on both my mother and grandmother being extremely jealous of others.
Just had to add: this statement above is a description of my upbringing in a nutshell.....EVERYONE was jealous of us, I was told....everyone.......it was like poison on a plant causing it to shrivel and die instead of embracing the good in others.......Oh, and everyone had an ulterior motive to hurt me so add together: trust NO ONE and everyone is JEALOUS of you and you get one mixed up, sad little girl.....
It takes years to work through that and I think I was unbelievably slow. I think part of us really, really wants our parents to be right. We so fervently want to believe them and have them finally, unconditionally love us. The healing comes when we finally believe in ourselves.
smalltownusa, acknowledging your amazing accomplishment of identifying and breaking the destructive cycle is far from narcissistic! We are hardwired not to think or say anything positive about ourselves, but like hiknapster said, it's important to realize your worth .
I hear what you're saying hiknapster, about setting the boundaries where you are. I haven't seen my mom in over 2 years, but I do look forward to getting away from the constant boundary pushing. Maybe some day my family will stop testing the boundaries, but after two years they are still going strong. It takes a lot of energy to maintain those boundaries. I always wonder why they don't just move on? You'd think after two years they'd find something else on which to focus their attention.
Here are a couple questions about issues that plague me daily that I haven't quite figured out how to overcome...
1) The "negative filter." It's like everything that other people say or do goes through this negative filter in my head. I automatically assume they don't like me, are bothered by me, that I said or did the wrong thing, etc. It's this constant feeling of humiliation and inadequacy. The result is that I am quite isolated because I try to avoid feeling bad all the time. After I go out to lunch with an acquaintance, I will spend the next several days thinking about all the stupid things I said and how they must think I am a complete idiot. Intellectually I can tell myself that these are thought distortions, but can this kind of thinking improve?
2) Parenting. This is the biggest thing. At times it feels like I am parenting in complete darkness because I never had any role models. I go on instinct and love my children so much. I know I am not like my mother, but I still worry constantly that I am doing something terribly wrong. Almost every aspect of parenting feels like a vast unknown to me. There are also certain aspects of parenting that really threw me for a loop. One is the physical aspect. My kids (ages 2 and 4) love to climb, cuddle, and just be in close physical contact with me a lot. I realize this is normal. I was beaten since infancy and there was no physical affection from my mom. This has made me somewhat averse to physical contact. While I enjoy a good cuddle with my kids, some of the other aspects, like the rough and tumble play, them climbing all over me, etc, literally sends me into a panic. My heart will race and my instinct is to get away. It's like fight or flight. I am able to control this, or at the very least make something up ("Mommy needs to go get a drink of water"), but I feel horrible for even having these unnatural reactions to my own children. It has gotten better and more tolerable over time, but I constantly worry about my ability to be a good enough mom. It doesn't help that the first 1.5 years after my oldest was born, my mom was showering me daily with criticism. Even though I have no contact with her anymore, I still hear all the things I know she would say, and it impacts me in a big way .
Marmon, I am luckier because other than my father's wife, I don't have anyone that pushes to see me. I haven't seen my mother in about 16 years. I have since been married, had major surgery, bought my first house, started a bricks and mortar business and had a child. She has no interest in visiting. I once told her I would come up to visit and she asked in a panic, "Where will you stay?"
Marmon, how old are you? The older I get the less I care what other people think. Great cliche but I mean it. The best part is once I stopped caring I was able to be myself and I found out that I'm pretty likable. Funny, too. Who knew?
Regarding the rough play, don't panic. You don't have to participate and be a good mom. I've never done that, probably for the same reasons. With my last child I had fibromyalgia, or so they thought, so it was a great excuse. But you can gently tell them mommy doesn't like that. It's fine.
Marmon, I want you to tell yourself everyday that you are such a better mother. Every day. Because it's true. You love your children so right there you are already light years ahead of her.
My mother is such a riot when it comes to giving advice. They all have selective memory. I remember her telling me that I shouldn't allow my 12-year-old to be latchkey. I was astounded because I use to be alone from the time I was 7. She doesn't remember that.
The other day she tried to give me advice on whether to homeschool or not. I said, "Seriously, mother. Your lucky you didn't go to prison. Don't dole out advice."
Bear in mind that narcissists do not have your best interests at heart. Do not take their advice or criticism. It is meant to do harm! And it is always meant to prop themselves up. If she is giving advice it is because she is the best mother in the world, dontcha know, and you, you sad thing, NEED her.
Marmon, I am luckier because other than my father's wife, I don't have anyone that pushes to see me. I haven't seen my mother in about 16 years. I have since been married, had major surgery, bought my first house, started a bricks and mortar business and had a child. She has no interest in visiting. I once told her I would come up to visit and she asked in a panic, "Where will you stay?"
Yup, there's the perpetual indifference to the ups, downs, milestones, and major events of our lives. My mom actually left me alone and we hardly saw each other until my first child was born. She had big plans and saw a huge source of gratification in my daughter (she wanted to be "super-grandma" and also wanted to mold dd into everything she wanted that I never became - basically a mini-her ). I have heard of n-moms like yours who are completely uninvolved, including with their grandchildren. I admit that I wish my mom were that way in light of what I experienced with her after dd was born. Yet, I know if hadn't had that experience, there would be the pain of her lack of involvement and indifference. It is terrible either way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster
Marmon, how old are you? The older I get the less I care what other people think. Great cliche but I mean it. The best part is once I stopped caring I was able to be myself and I found out that I'm pretty likable. Funny, too. Who knew?
Well, I am old enough that I shouldn't care so much what people think ! I am 34... I am going to give this a try....not caring what people think. It has to beat being a anxious bundle of nerves with every social interaction !
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster
Regarding the rough play, don't panic. You don't have to participate and be a good mom. I've never done that, probably for the same reasons. With my last child I had fibromyalgia, or so they thought, so it was a great excuse. But you can gently tell them mommy doesn't like that. It's fine.
Marmon, I want you to tell yourself everyday that you are such a better mother. Every day. Because it's true. You love your children so right there you are already light years ahead of her.
THANK YOU!!! This helps so much.
Sorry to hear you are dealing with fibromyalgia (or whatever it was / is - did they ever figure it out?). It sounds like a such a difficult condition, and caring for little ones is hard enough even when you're well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster
My mother is such a riot when it comes to giving advice. They all have selective memory. I remember her telling me that I shouldn't allow my 12-year-old to be latchkey. I was astounded because I use to be alone from the time I was 7. She doesn't remember that.
The other day she tried to give me advice on whether to homeschool or not. I said, "Seriously, mother. Your lucky you didn't go to prison. Don't dole out advice."
Bear in mind that narcissists do not have your best interests at heart. Do not take their advice or criticism. It is meant to do harm! And it is always meant to prop themselves up. If she is giving advice it is because she is the best mother in the world, dontcha know, and you, you sad thing, NEED her.
Right?
YES! My mom is the same with her selective memory and the non-stop unsolicited, ridiculous advice. Your response to your mom's advice on homeschooling was great! I never got to the point where I could talk to my mom that way. I never stopped being afraid of her and always walked on eggshells around her trying to protect her feelings. Your description in the last paragraph is dead on. I am going to have to re-read it a few times, especially the next time her voice comes screeching into my thoughts.
Thanks so much for your insights. I have a lot to digest and think about!
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). They tell me I need to get over the past and let my mom's current bad behavior (lies, manipulation, etc) "roll off me." Please. 
. Narcissists will literally stop at nothing to maintain that illusion. My mom is currently telling people something along the lines of "marmom is such a kind gentle soul, but for some reason she wants to remember things a lot worse than they really were" *sniff* 
.
). I have heard of n-moms like yours who are completely uninvolved, including with their grandchildren. I admit that I wish my mom were that way in light of what I experienced with her after dd was born. Yet, I know if hadn't had that experience, there would be the pain of her lack of involvement and indifference. It is terrible either way. 
! I am 34... I am going to give this a try....not caring what people think. It has to beat being a anxious bundle of nerves with every social interaction 
