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Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 26,096,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slig
I think your buddy with the MBA isn't looking hard enough. I just looked and my office is hiring a few corporate support positions, we seem to lose somebody who goes to another company in the Twin Cities a few times a month. There are jobs out there, you just have to apply to 20 places a day and when you get the call back nail the interview. It isn't rocket science.
No, but it sometimes takes a bit of luck ... as well as hard work ... to find the place that will actually call you in for an interview.
If you are considering moving to MSP without a job, I would think twice. Our unemployment rate is currently at 8.5%, I know several people who are unemployed, underemployed or have just given up looking for a job. The Twin Cities job market ranked #66 out of 100 job markets and it will only get worse next year.
Interesting points. I think it's interesting that you say that there is the perception that people think non-natives wouldn't want to stay in Minneapolis permanently. I've been here two months and I love it. It's such a beautiful city. So although it's definitely too soon to tell for sure (haven't been through a Minnesota winter yet but having moved from Toronto I think I'm well prepared), I can at least imagine settling down here.
My prob though is that I am a grad student and when I graduate I will probably have to consider jobs elsewhere. But that's a long way off so who knows. Anyway, my partner can always say that his wife (we would be married by then) has been living in the twin cities and he will be joining her.
I am in complete agreement that it is not a good idea for him to move here first and then look for a job. As much as I want him here, I wouldn't go that route.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist
I don't see anyone here saying that the job market in the Twin Cities is good. It IS doing okay compared to other places. The job situation between my friends and family in MN versus those in Southern CA is like night and day. It is much, much better to be in the Twin Cities right now: more jobs (relatively speaking) and lower cost of living. That's not denying that the situation is still bad.
All of that said, I still wouldn't move without a job lined up, but the big problem for would-be Minnesotans is that it's tougher to break into the job market from out-of-state (even if you're willing to pay for all relocation expenses) because there's still the vision that people don't want to move to MN, and will leave for greener pastures as soon as they can. When we were living elsewhere and applying for jobs back in MN you could practically see the difference it made when the people doing the interviewing realized that we had roots there. That's probably less of an issue for the big companies or for corporate transfers, but it is a catch-22 for those who want to move to the Twin Cities without any connections. It's a bad idea to move without a job lined up, but it's also going to be tough to get a job without a local address.
I think the perception is outdated, but it still lives on in some places. When my dad was applying for jobs back in the 1970s it was far more obvious, and people would outright ask him "why do you want to move HERE?" I think some Minnesotans have an inferiority complex! The winter weather gets old fast, but it gets cold and snowy other places, too. Hmm. I'm not sure what people (those who wonder why people move to MN) say to Canadians; you might not get it as bad because you're coming from somewhere else known to have winters.
MxdWithLuv, I think you're okay moving without a job (it will be easier to find one once you're in town), since you will have significant savings built up.
I am originally from MN, moved to DC after college for work after not being able to find something decent in MN after the dot.com bust. Now I find myself wanting to move back to MN, but in the middle of this economic mess. It doesn't look good. Especially since jobs are so plentiful and well-paying here in DC. It's actually pretty damn stupid to even think about moving back. But I miss it and I've been away 8 years now.
I am a software engineer. What scares me is most of the job postings for anything IT are all contract jobs. Temp, or temp to hire. Hourly. None of the big companies actually hire their own people anymore. And I'd be competing with the H1B visa people (no offense at all to these people, but they are sharp and hard working). Plus, these are the types of jobs that could be off-shored tomorrow. There just doesn't seem to be any kind of future with a stable company in MN. I want to find a company I can settle down in and be secure. So really, what is the state of the IT market in MN? Is there any hope? Should I just squash my dreams of ever moving back to the great state?
I am originally from MN, moved to DC after college for work after not being able to find something decent in MN after the dot.com bust. Now I find myself wanting to move back to MN, but in the middle of this economic mess. It doesn't look good. Especially since jobs are so plentiful and well-paying here in DC. It's actually pretty damn stupid to even think about moving back. But I miss it and I've been away 8 years now.
I am a software engineer. What scares me is most of the job postings for anything IT are all contract jobs. Temp, or temp to hire. Hourly. None of the big companies actually hire their own people anymore. And I'd be competing with the H1B visa people (no offense at all to these people, but they are sharp and hard working). Plus, these are the types of jobs that could be off-shored tomorrow. There just doesn't seem to be any kind of future with a stable company in MN. I want to find a company I can settle down in and be secure. So really, what is the state of the IT market in MN? Is there any hope? Should I just squash my dreams of ever moving back to the great state?
A lot of companies have gone to hiring either on a contract basis or temp-to-hire, not just in the IT world but across the market. It gives employers (and employees) a chance to try before you buy so to speak. Many of the temp jobs do lead to permanent placements, although it isn't guaranteed.
I know my company only hires referrals of existing employees. So now half of the employees used to work together at other jobs. I would not be hired at this company today. I started back when you responded to a newspaper ad by calling on the phone. Now we don't post new positions. Jack in I.T. tells his brother in law, who sends his neighbor over etc.
If you are considering moving to MSP without a job, I would think twice. Our unemployment rate is currently at 8.5%, I know several people who are unemployed, underemployed or have just given up looking for a job. The Twin Cities job market ranked #66 out of 100 job markets and it will only get worse next year.
I wanted to respond to you since I saw your post on the Albuquerque site about considering moving back. (I, too, lived in Minneapolis for over a decade then moved to Albuqueque. I liked some things about ABQ very much, especially the hiking in the Sandias, the Volcanoes, and trips elsewhere, but the culture did bother me a bit, too. And, the person I eventually got a job with was not a very nice person - I was paid well - but she wasn't interested in enhancing her business and was actually getting rid of a major account which took away my work, and she didn't want to recommend me to any of her clients for future work. She had this thing about those with CPAs and anyone else with less than that was not good enough, although I had a B.S. and post-bacc work.)
So, my final months in Albuquerque, I had to leave the apartment I was in, got in with another person, declared bankruptcy, and left the end of September.
I knew I would not be returning to Minneapolis for several reasons - too insular, too far north, and just not a place for me for other reasons. I lived in the city for over the decade and while there were things about it I enjoyed, I always felt the culture was a bit closed. It seemed you had to marry into a family to keep relationships. And, I even experienced that again just recently with a friend of 5 years from the area who figures that maintaining a relationship with someone at a distance isn't worth it. She's known her now daughter-in-law less time than me, but since K. married her son, she's in, her family is in, her parents are best friends with the other parents. So, when I left Minneapolis several years ago, I knew I would never be going back, and I still won't.
It has a lot to offer, but I'm over that kind of stuff, now. I was in Minneapolis during the good times - when unemployment was really low, and jobs were plentiful, the extra tax rebates were pouring in due to the surpluses in the state economy.
I'm sure healthcare has the jobs - anywhere. I could have done a nursing program in Albuquerque, but didn't want to wait the years to get off the waiting list. And, I didn't want to be around sick people anymore.
The job market in ABQ isn't that good, either, but I don't think it ever is. Not enough industry.
But one thing I've learned just within the past few weeks, is that I think it is increasingly difficult to get hired anywhere - good times or bad - if you have lived in a few places within ten years, you have done different lines of work in those ten years, and you have some gaps in the resume. Frankly, I feel those recruiters who see that and swear by it just lack the aptitude to read between the lines and see what the person has done in the meantime.
I have a B.S. degree. I have post baccalaureate class work. I have what I thought was a decent work history - worked in accounting/taxation since 2000, worked as an accounts payable clerk for nine months in Albuquerque and made $15/hour at it, was a PC trainer and database assistant for two part time employers (concurrently) while in a grad program in Milwaukee a about 4 years ago. But, this doesn't matter to recruiters in corporations, I've learned. They want those who have stayed at one job for umpteen years, then got a different job and stayed with them for another umpteen years - all in the same area. Recruiters - or most of them - can't figure out that a person may have not worked for two or three months because was working on a graduate degree and then got two part time jobs while in school.
And, two part time jobs to many recruiters, HR people, or those making the hiring decisions, is never as good as one full time job, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, 365 days a year - non stop. No matter if you worked over 40 hours per week at the two part time jobs. No matter if you spent more time and really had to know how to prioritize and organize your daily and weekly schedule to work at two part time jobs and take two graduate classes. I knew I could do circles around many people who just work one full time job, go home, and sit in front of the TV for the rest of the night. I accomplished way more in that one year with two part time jobs and grad school then any person working full time, then going home. But, to many HR people, they have even asked me, "so, you didn't work full time at one job then, did you?"
Although I got a job in Omaha right away to have money coming in - at a grocery store (and, about a grand a month is ok for now since I don't have the debt anymore due to the bankruptcy), I still have found myself not able to get into corporation in an office or similar jobs. Nowadays, it's just not work experience. For a position for an accounting clerk, I never heard from a few places, and one had a personality "profile" test to determine eligibility. Yea, they now weed out people based on that - but I got decent "scores" yet never was hired. I accused them of age discrimination, since they "needed" to know my specific age upon taking the test, or else the application process was over.
I also figured they wanted a local person in the full time office who could sit around and talk about Nebraska football all day long.
So, with that experience, I realized no matter where I go, I will have problems since I am now over 35. I don't believe you even have to wait until your are 40, except when the economy is great and they need every body they can get.
I will admit that in Albuquerque, I did have some offers for some call center jobs. They wanted people with some experience, to go further. But, that was all in 2008 and I had my bills at the time. And, I didn't know what I really wanted - a nursing degree or just a job. Had I done the bankruptcy then, I could have taken a call center job at $10/hour and then been ok, and probably sent to the Philippines to work for them as a trainer, six months later.
I will also admit that I've made mistakes along the way, and poor decisions. Had I done that bankruptcy
(on about $10,000 credit card debt which was manageable then, but the companies changed my rates from fixed to variable despite excellent payment history and I said goodbye. Stopped making my excellent payments in May 2009, retained my attorney, and filed in July. I just paid him instead.)
I would have had more financial freedom to take a downwardly mobile job. But, that is hindsight.
So, I made my blunders, too. However, it in increasingly difficult to find work as you get older, if you haven't worked at a job forever with no gaps whatsoever, or no time off in between jobs.
After that negative experience with the HR department here in Omaha for that accounting clerk job, I gave up and to hell with it. I decided to complete the paralegal program in one year (full time/post baccalaureate certificate) and then leave the area. Omaha is nice; people are decent, but it is not for me long term. Too much college football.
I am very good at writing, research, analysis, and I enjoy the law. I figured this would be a good route and could work in state or local government, too. And, the certificate would limit the competition to those of with the experience - so although I am qualified for "attention to detail work, previous accounting experience, good math ability" and all those phrases used by HR people for generic jobs but really make their decision based on "personality profiles and age," at least I won't have to compete with the applicants who lack a very specific skill.
And, with no debts, I could always work at another grocery store at less than $8/hour to make ends meet until the specific job comes through.
But, I'm 46. I'm tired of the job scene in this country. I'm tired of HR departments run by kids in their 20s. I'll get inheritance and my share of my father's home assets in a few years, and that will be a decent chunk in the bank, and I can make it on $14,000/year if I have, too, I've learned recently.
I'm no longer on the fast track to some career. I'm no longer on the career track. I don't want it anymore. I just want to earn my pay to pay my bills. What is a career but prestige, anyhow, I was told by some very astute person in Minneapolis about ten years ago - when I didn't have debts then either, and no student loans. Now I have a lot of them, again, but with the new Income Based Repayment Plan, I can pay according to my income for 25 years and the balance is history (canceled). I can even have the balance canceled after ten years if I work for a non-profit or government. I could find paralegal work in that area, I'm confident.
So, if our federal government, which started back in the summer of 2008, can bail out banks, car companies, and those companies still pay huge bonuses, I had no problems with my decision to declare bankruptcy on my small credit card debt and no problems with paying according to the IBR terms of the student loans, then having the rest canceled 10-25 years later, if I live that long. Same with people who walked away from their mortgages after using their paper equity as an ATM machine; if they can use money that wasn't theirs, and get their mortgage interest deductions on it for ten years, then leave those homes without paying the mortgage (really getting free, tax free money due to the mortgage interest deduction), then I don't have any qualms about my bankruptcy of this year.
This new era of this economy is a whole new ballgame.
I've lived through the recession of the early 80s (when I was at university for my undergrad) and I was an early teen during the 1970s recession. But, those were not like this one. And, that with the hostility about health insurance reform, has really altered how I feel about things in this country and a fair amount of people, who reap the benefits of getting health insurance (through a decent job, through marriage, being old - in this case it's a government plan, yet old folks don't see it that way. They also got their government involved when they complained ten years ago about their high drug costs, mainly due to their lifelong lifestyles. But, people have short memories when it comes to helping out other people who should get a government option, too.)
So, considering you mentioned returning to ABQ, I have had similar thoughts recently. I miss the mountains, I miss hiking over rocks and boulders, I miss being outdoors to get my exercise.
I don't miss the culture in some ways or the tomorrow attitude about getting things done.
The constant sun did get to me. I'd have my concerns about returning since I did get a melanoma when I was there (I think triggered by being there, but was predisposed to it anyhow.)
As for jobs, now I don't need much money. I lived cheaply for quite a few years in Minnesota, from 1994 - 2004, and frankly, those were very happy times.
I could probably do it again, but never in Minnesota. New Mexico is on my mind, and I could very well see myself giving it a second go around in about 15 months, when my program is completed.
I don't think you need to have a job lined up before you go anywhere. Some cash in hand would help. If one can get by on a food store job, or similar pay for awhile, then go for it.
I saw and heard about all these people (tax clients, family members) brag about their fat 401K plans over the past 10 years. I never bought into that program. And, where are those folks now. Back in the job market, or looking for work, since they lost all "their money." They never lost their money. It wasn't theirs to begin with. If they still have their initial investment (not their employers), then they haven't lost anything. Anything above their initial investment was nothing but an illusion - all on paper. Same with home equity due to rising home values. Their mortgages became overblown due to using their paper equity as an ATM machine. It was never their home to begin with (always the banks home - always has been, always will, until you pay off the mortgage) and they just borrowed and spent, then walked away.
But, I didn't have any of that, and I'm glad for never buying into the great American dream of must have a home and a 401K plan. (Here, you have a home so you can buy multiple quantity bags to rake your leaves. People are chained to their homes.)
I suggest giving New Mexico another try, but will say that a change in attitude about the area helps. Being away you can see the forest for the trees, as you have. It has many good qualities - I guess it's much easier if you make a lot of money there, and some do, although they aren't qualified - which happens everywhere - and it probably isn't so bad if you are dirt poor to get benefits. At least I had state health insurance there.
Yes, some things really got to me, but I'm willing to do it again. And, just live more freely and cheaply, which may be the New Mexican way, and with that attitude, it could very well work.
If you want to engage in more personal talk about this subject, please email me directly, Repubucrat. I'm only 5.5 hours from Minneapolis, and thinking about a New Mexico return in 15 months.
As soon as companies rethink the entire process and consider the employees at the top shaving a few million dollars off their salaries rather than dumping low end employees, massive layoffs will cause a domino effect.
Its not good here, but its not good in many areas.
Cutting corporate tax rates have been proven to create jobs but that doesn't appear to be the track this country's on.
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What's the job market like for IT jobs?
