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People need to factor in how expensive it is to live in this state. When I moved here, it was to take a position that offered 30% greater salary than I was making in a Southern state. I said to my wife, "Great, we'll have more disposable income!" Boy was I mistaken. Bottom line after I paid the much higher income taxes, higher cost of living in general, more expensive homes and property taxes, we had LESS money in our pockets at the end of the month.
When I did the math, most of the cost was eaten up in income taxes and all the other fees. I had to pay an absurd $400 a year to license my 4 year old SUV. I went from paying almost no state income taxes to almost 8% here. Higher gas taxes and more taxes everywhere. Daycare went up by a factor of 4. We were paying $100 a week for 2 kids in daycare and here it was closer to $400. Oh yeah, can't forget, when had the kids at a daycare out of a home, we had to pay for that ladies vacation and even pay when are kids were with us on vacation. Then we made the mistake of going to New Horizons after we had another kid. Our daycare costs there were more than many people make a year. I think we paid about $27,000 a year for 3 kids in daycare there. That is 27k after taxes. That means we had to make about 50k gross a year just to cover damn daycare in this state.
Life sure is better here... Yet the average native Minnesotan has no idea what it is like beyond their myopic microcosm of a state. I work all over the world and I can't wait to get the heck out of this state permanently. Typical Minnesotan response to my comment would be the passive aggressive get the heck out and don't let the door hit you on the way out. More open people would try and figure out a way to make the state better by listening to constructive criticism. You need people like me who are well educated, well employed and carry a large share of the tax burden to provide for all the social programs you love in this state. What happens when all the high wage earners leave? Who is going to pick up the tab? All the suckers left who'll have to be taxed at an even higher rate.
A large majority of the people I work with, can't wait for an opportunity to leave. They are in the top 10% of wage earners in the state without a doubt. They see that no companies are considering relocating here. The cost of doing business here is very high. High taxes DO NOT LURE businesses to your state. You can wax on about how well educated the workers are here but just in case you haven't noticed, Minnesota doesn't have a lock on this. Boston has a very highly educated workforce too and much lower taxes. A nice place to live with a much better public transit system. Pretty sad when Taxachusetts has lower taxes than Minnesota. When is the average American and Minnesotan going to wake up and realize higher taxes do NOT GROW the economy either locally or nationally. Lower taxes and you will encourage growth. Companies will consider relocating here rather than fleeing. Only the companies that have no choice to leave will likely be stuck here. Can anyone think of a major Fortune 500 or even 1000 company that decided to relocate here in the last 3 years?
It's all about perspective, I guess. We've lived a lot of places, too, and that has made us appreciate Minnesota far more than we did before those other experiences. In comparison to many bigger cities Minneapolis is incredibly affordable. Middle class people can afford to buy a house, they can afford daycare, they have ready access to high-quality public schools.
I had always assumed that paying for a daycare space whether or not you were on vacation was standard. It's been that way everywhere we've lived. When my son was in a daycare (not in Minneapolis) they described it as the equivalent of rent: you pay to hold the spot, just like you pay for your apartment even if you're on vacation. In any case, that's not a Minnesota-specific thing, even if you didn't encounter it elsewhere.
I don't really see what's passive agressive about saying "get the heck out and don't let the door hit you on the way," by the way; sounds pretty upfront about it. I'm willing to pay taxes if it means better public services, services that benefit society as a whole and help provide a higher quality of life for everyone. You're free to complain all you want, but given that Minnesota overall seems to be doing pretty well I see no reason why Minnesotans should be in such a rush to make changes based on other states that are at or near the bottom of the list when it comes to most quality of life rankings.
So you don't like Minnesota. Fine. Many people do, and despite the claims to the contrary, lots of people are more than happy to relocate to the state. If you want to move back somewhere else then go for it. There are more than enough well educated high wage earners (and well educated people who are eager to relocate) willing to fill your shoes, so I doubt the state is going to have a shortage of qualified workers anytime soon. Minnesota is certainly not the only state with a highly educated workforce, but the comparatively low cost of living compared to many other similar states is a huge draw for many of us. That's certainly part of the reason some of my Boston friends like the idea of moving to MN; they love Boston (who wouldn't?), but Minneapolis offers a high quality life with similar amenities for a far more affordable price tag.
There are cheaper cities, but believe me, there are plenty of more expensive ones, too. We have one kid, with I hope at least one more to come at some point, and we love that we can actually afford a good life in Minneapolis. It means I can choose whether to work or to stay home with my son while he's young, that we can afford preschool, that we can take vacations that we wouldn't be able to afford if we were living in a more expensive city, that we can afford both a mortgage and can save for retirement.
People need to factor in how expensive it is to live in this state. When I moved here, it was to take a position that offered 30% greater salary than I was making in a Southern state. I said to my wife, "Great, we'll have more disposable income!" Boy was I mistaken. Bottom line after I paid the much higher income taxes, higher cost of living in general, more expensive homes and property taxes, we had LESS money in our pockets at the end of the month.
When I did the math, most of the cost was eaten up in income taxes and all the other fees. I had to pay an absurd $400 a year to license my 4 year old SUV. I went from paying almost no state income taxes to almost 8% here. Higher gas taxes and more taxes everywhere. Daycare went up by a factor of 4. We were paying $100 a week for 2 kids in daycare and here it was closer to $400. Oh yeah, can't forget, when had the kids at a daycare out of a home, we had to pay for that ladies vacation and even pay when are kids were with us on vacation. Then we made the mistake of going to New Horizons after we had another kid. Our daycare costs there were more than many people make a year. I think we paid about $27,000 a year for 3 kids in daycare there. That is 27k after taxes. That means we had to make about 50k gross a year just to cover damn daycare in this state.
Life sure is better here... Yet the average native Minnesotan has no idea what it is like beyond their myopic microcosm of a state. I work all over the world and I can't wait to get the heck out of this state permanently. Typical Minnesotan response to my comment would be the passive aggressive get the heck out and don't let the door hit you on the way out. More open people would try and figure out a way to make the state better by listening to constructive criticism. You need people like me who are well educated, well employed and carry a large share of the tax burden to provide for all the social programs you love in this state. What happens when all the high wage earners leave? Who is going to pick up the tab? All the suckers left who'll have to be taxed at an even higher rate.
A large majority of the people I work with, can't wait for an opportunity to leave. They are in the top 10% of wage earners in the state without a doubt. They see that no companies are considering relocating here. The cost of doing business here is very high. High taxes DO NOT LURE businesses to your state. You can wax on about how well educated the workers are here but just in case you haven't noticed, Minnesota doesn't have a lock on this. Boston has a very highly educated workforce too and much lower taxes. A nice place to live with a much better public transit system. Pretty sad when Taxachusetts has lower taxes than Minnesota. When is the average American and Minnesotan going to wake up and realize higher taxes do NOT GROW the economy either locally or nationally. Lower taxes and you will encourage growth. Companies will consider relocating here rather than fleeing. Only the companies that have no choice to leave will likely be stuck here. Can anyone think of a major Fortune 500 or even 1000 company that decided to relocate here in the last 3 years?
Don't let the door hit you in the behind. Frankly I find your attitude offensive. MN has a very highly educated population and if you leave your company will have NO problem replacing you what so ever. We don't NEED you here at all. The vast majority of our friends would fall into the the top 10% wage earners in the state and they are MORE than happy to stay. Minnesota isn't for everyone but is is a FAR SIGHT better than anything you can get in the south.
Your problem is that you didn't research your move carefully enough. Everyone hear could have told you that things were expensive and to do a salary analysis before you moved to find out if your new wage was comparable.
As far as daycare goes-the obvious answer is don't put your kids in daycare. Do you really "make" money spending that much on daycare when you factor in extra commuting costs, clothes for work, higher tax bracket, etc.??
Last edited by golfgal; 11-25-2009 at 06:15 AM..
Reason: daycare comment
About a third of the people I know there are unemployed or underemployed...meaning they have taken pay cuts or mandatury days off to maintain employment.
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
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I've lived in the Atlanta metro for five years now, also in a southern state.
The yearly vehicle tax (called the Ad Valorem tax in Georgia) is no different in magnitude from the renewal fees in Minnesota, my property taxes are roughly the same here in suburban Cobb County as they were in suburban Hennepin up there, and while some things are a bit better in Atlanta (homes are considerably less expensive here), other things are more expensive than they were in the Twin Cities, and the whole Atlanta metro seems infested with certain types of crimes and has local governments on multiple levels that seem more corrupt than anything I remember in the 40 years I spent living in the Twin Cities. Cobb County, GA, seems to be well run for the most part, but the core city of Atlanta, the state of Georgia, and other metro counties like Clayton seem to be a real mess.
You make some good points regarding high taxes and businesses, but I think there is something to be said for having enough tax revenue (as most of MN does) to pay for quality services like public education ... the public schools in the Twin Cities are almost universally of good quality, for example, and while the schools in most areas of the Atlanta metro are quite good as well especially in the metro county I live in (Cobb), there are a large number of areas even here in Cobb County where the wealthier families wouldn't be caught dead sending their kids to public schools and private schools are king. Those are a lot more expensive than simply paying property taxes.
Whether or not MN is "better" or not depends on all sorts of personal opinion and personal preference. I grew up in MN and the Twin Cities and loved it up there, and I've lived in Atlanta now for a while and I also love it down here, but given a choice between the more liberal and tax-heavy northern state and the more conservative but chaotic southern one, I would choose the northern state every single time. I like living in a metro where bank robberies and home invasions are a rarity, where the public schools are uniformly good, where a person can actually ride a bike in relative safety, and where I know that if I end up losing my job again due to industry downturns or whatever, the unemployment benefits might actually be enough to keep me away from bankruptcy. I've been laid off twice in my 20+ year career, so I have an appreciation for such services.
Believe me, Georgia doesn't compare with Minnesota in that regard. It does have other advantages, and some might deem them more inportant, but they aren't me.
A large percentage of your coworkers can't wait to leave? What's stopping them? If they're so unhappy, I would think they'd be chomping at the bit to get out of the state...?
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oildog
About a third of the people I know there are unemployed or underemployed...meaning they have taken pay cuts or mandatury days off to maintain employment.
Someone who used to be a manager or programmer or teacher or whatever who is now flipping burgers is also underemployed. They don't count as unemployed any longer, and probably can't receive benefits, but they're also not able to perform their normal job function (or pay most of their bills either, probably).
I know several such people here. Some are working part-time jobs, some are lucky enough to find permanent positions (i.e., help desk) making a fraction of what they used to make, etc. Most are struggling to make basic ends meet.
I think Tasmanian has a rather warped perception in the cost of living department. MSP more expensive than Boston? I don't think so. Not if you compare apples to apples.
Granted, there are less expensive places to live, but here is a case where you get what you pay for. Unemployment is bad almost everywhere, and many places are far worse than here.
I dislike Minnesota for many reasons, ALL of which have to do with climate. But I'll have to admit that you get a lot for your money here.
Someone who used to be a manager or programmer or teacher or whatever who is now flipping burgers is also underemployed. They don't count as unemployed any longer, and probably can't receive benefits, but they're also not able to perform their normal job function (or pay most of their bills either, probably).
I know several such people here. Some are working part-time jobs, some are lucky enough to find permanent positions (i.e., help desk) making a fraction of what they used to make, etc. Most are struggling to make basic ends meet.
I agree, I meant to add the categories to what you said is 'traditional' underemployment.
When I lived in Minnesota, I usually lived pretty well. Now since I am looking at it from afar, it has it good points and bad. But, the one bad (winters) now outweigh any good. I just can't take anymore winters and cold weather. I need to be outside exercising and hiking year round, and my body and bones just can't take it in Minnesota in the winter anymore, nor in Omaha, which is certainly not nearly as cosmopolitan as Minneapolis. Although New Mexico has its problems, I need to return. I certainly miss something about it. And, I have found it difficult to find work - good work (I work now at a grocery store) - either in Minnesota, Omaha, or New Mexico. And, I have a college degree, but it is not a recent one. I haven't worked at a corporate office job for years on end, and sadly, HR people really don't choose people based on attributes and ability. They tend to favor those who have a spotless work history, with no gaps in between. And, I've decided to just reinvent myself after my return to New Mexico - emphasizing my entrepreneurial ability and using that to line up my own bookkeeping/tax business and probably do insurance on the side, too. And, then I can call my own free time, and hit those trails, even in January. To me, it's a different world out there economically, and I'm just not going to chase the corporate careers anymore. To hell with them is how I feel.
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