Perception of the Cities (Minneapolis, Grant: versus, clubs, design)

[G33kGoddess]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

It was, as you acknowledge, the subject of many, many comments, so I don't know why I shouldn't be able to offer my comment on it, as well. Frankly, I am not sure that this repeatedly occurred. My guess is that it happened once, you told it here as though it happened frequently, people called you on that, and in the process of defending this story, you have been forced to stick with the description of it as a frequent and repeated event. We will never know but, like many people, I find this story exceptionally hard to believe.

The issue was not that you shouldn't be able to offer your comment. This is a Forum. Everything is open to reasonable discussion.

The issue was that you cast doubt upon the validity of the story. If you look back over the years that Avindair has been posting, you will indeed see that the depiction of his experiences is consistent. Even if you didn't personally know Avindair and could vouch for his experiences, as I do, consistency actually adds weight to the validity of the anecdotes. Personal accounts that are not consistent are those that are suspect.

Barring the ready availability of independent statistical analysis of multiple surveys of just this subject, almost everything on this thread is anecdotal. To discount one person's experiences is to discount the credibility of everyone's experiences.

[Avindair]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

My guess is that it happened once, you told it here as though it happened frequently, people called you on that, and in the process of defending this story, you have been forced to stick with the description of it as a frequent and repeated event. We will never know but, like many people, I find this story exceptionally hard to believe.

In short, your response to my statements is "You're lying."

Thank you for once again proving my point for me. More than anything I will write, your response is going to show other Transplants and those considering moving to this region what to expect from an attempt at deep communication with local.

I take issue with your assertion. I share a painful part of living in this region, and the majority of poster's response to this issue is to claim it didn't happen. That alone is annoying. Your statement above, however, is just offensive.

Let me make this clear: The problem I have described has happened to my wife, my children, and I numerous occasions throughout our time here. The only logical reason for this issue to occur is that our name is not of the most common heritage found in this region. Or, to put it simply, prejudice.

That, of course, is the real crux of the issue. Nobody likes to have a mirror held up to the more unseemly sides of their nature. It's easier to call the person facing the difficulty a "liar" than it is to admit that there is, indeed, an issue.

Regards.

[audadvnc]

Originally Posted by Avindair

The only logical reason for this issue to occur is that our name is not of the most common heritage found in this region. Or, to put it simply, prejudice.

I can think of a half dozen logical reasons for people to not like you. They are probably mostly absurd and false too. But that never seems to slow people down...

I hate all generalists!

[uptown_urbanist]

Given that most of us also do not have Scandinavian last names and have never had this happen and have never heard of such a thing, I doubt that's the reason. I've had two last names in this state, neither of them Scandinavian (and one of them very unusual -- I think I'm related distantly to everyone in the country with that name!) and no one has ever said such a thing. I'm not suggesting that you are lying, but rather that you are misinterpreting the situation. Only a quarter (a lot, to be sure, but nowhere near majority status) of people in Hennepin County report any Scandinavian ancestry. In comparison, less than half a percent report ancestry from the ethnicity of my maiden name, yet other than clarifying pronunciation it was not worthy of comment, let alone derision, and I've lived in Minnesota for 23 years (21 of them with that last name; my current one isn't Scandinavian, either, although it's more common)

[G33kGoddess]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

I just don't divide my friends and family among who is from here and who isn't -- if they live here they are part of the community. End of story. I think to do otherwise it to invite artificial divisions and to possibly invent problems that otherwise wouldn't exist.

I agree - divisiveness brings nothing but problems, and lessens the purpose and benefits of community for everyone. If you treat everyone as you say, perhaps if you and I had somehow met, face to face, under other circumstances here, we would get along. I would certainly welcome the chance to find an exception to the rule I have experienced here for so many years.

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

Maybe my perception has been skewed because I don't expect the actions of others to make me feel part of the community or not; sometimes you've just got to insert yourself into it.

If one moves into a community, makes continual attempts to be a part of that community, but even after years of involvement is still treated as an outsider, what is the point of "inserting" yourself? The community receives all of the benefits, without having to be inclusive, while the perpetually-perceived "transplant" is left unappreciated and no closer to inclusion for all of their efforts.

If you, yourself, are not an "excluder" of transplants, I can see how our point of view would be frustrating and confusing to you. However, I can assure you from our experience and the experiences of others we know, it is far from uncommon. All I am trying obtain get across, is the need for locals to actually acknowledge that a problem does exist for transplants - instead of almost uniformily denying our experiences.

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

And if they happen to be people originally from other places, who cares? They're still just as much Minnesotan as the next person. I know some people on this board hate this opinion, but I feel that if you live in Minnesota you're Minnesotan, like it or not! You can also be something else, but you are also Minnesotan by virtue of geographic location. Maybe not a "native" Minnesotan, but most of us aren't drawing distinctions.

I appreciate you considering anyone living here to be Minnesotan. It's unfortunate that that opinion has been a rarity in personal encounters of both myself and others I know from out of the region. If I'd heard it more often, my feelings about this place may have been different.

[Avindair]

Originally Posted by audadvnc

It could be that society in general has gotten less friendly, and that location is not the issue.

A theory not held up by experiences that I and my other transplant friends have had.

In 2008 I spent four months in school in Orlando, Florida. My classmates came from around the country, and heck, parts of Europe and South America as well. To say making friends with them -- and with numerous locals in region -- was easy would be an understatement. "Effortless" was the word I used then, and I stand by it.

I'm still friends with those people. I hear from them no less than every other day.

My friend who moved back to Atlanta offered up the same experience. After two years of trying everything she could to make friends in the Minneapolis Metro, she found making friends in Georgia ridiculously easy.

Another friend -- originally from Arkansas -- spent nine years extremely active in the community. Volunteer work, classes at the University, paralegal work, and loads of experience in local theater., (One of the shows she co-wrote and directed tends to get noticed during the holidays.) She relocated and, in her words, "...made more and better friends in six months out of state than I had in almost a decade of trying to make friends with Minnesotans."

These stories point to a local, not national phenomenon.

[Avindair]

Originally Posted by audadvnc

I can think of a half dozen logical reasons for people to not like you. They are probably mostly absurd and false too. But that never seems to slow people down...

I hate all generalists!

Ah, so now we have the personal attack because someone disagreed with you? Attacking the messenger, but not the message?

Another fine Minnesotan tradition.

Please! Keep them coming! You're making my job extremely easy.

Wow.

[QuantumIguana]

When I look at every message board on this website, for each city and state there is some variation on "Why this place and its people are awful." On the NYC forum, there is post after post complaining about how awful transplants are. This is just another of those. It's really hard to take people seriously when anecdotes are passed off as typical. Seriously, pointing to someone's in-laws being awful as an indictment on Minnesota? Terrible in-laws have been the fodder for writers for centuries.

I don't doubt that some people have difficulty adapting. I do doubt that it is as prevalent as some say, and I further doubt that those who have difficulty adapting have actually figured out why they had difficulty adapting.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Avindair

A theory not held up by experiences that I and my other transplant friends have had.

In 2008 I spent four months in school in Orlando, Florida. My classmates came from around the country, and heck, parts of Europe and South America as well. To say making friends with them -- and with numerous locals in region -- was easy would be an understatement. "Effortless" was the word I used then, and I stand by it.

I'm still friends with those people. I hear from them no less than every other day.

My friend who moved back to Atlanta offered up the same experience. After two years of trying everything she could to make friends in the Minneapolis Metro, she found making friends in Georgia ridiculously easy.

Another friend -- originally from Arkansas -- spent nine years extremely active in the community. Volunteer work, classes at the University, paralegal work, and loads of experience in local theater., (One of the shows she co-wrote and directed tends to get noticed during the holidays.) She relocated and, in her words, "...made more and better friends in six months out of state than I had in almost a decade of trying to make friends with Minnesotans."

These stories point to a local, not national phenomenon.

You made friends with these people because you had a common bond/goal/interest with these people. Find the same bond/goal/interest here and you will make friends.

We have friends that lived in Arkansas for about 3 years and couldn't wait to get out because everyone around them were so unfriendly. It isn't a "local phenomenon" for they have recently moved to our community and have met more people in a couple months-going out with them, having dinner at their houses, etc. in the 2 1/2 months they have been here then all of their years in Arkansas. Heck, we have known them for over 20 years and haven't been able to get together because they have had almost TOO many invites-mostly from people from their church.

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by Avindair

Ah, so now we have the personal attack because someone disagreed with you? Attacking the messenger, but not the message?

Another fine Minnesotan tradition.

Please! Keep them coming! You're making my job extremely easy.

Wow.

That's odd. I didn't read that as an attack on you but a criticism of those who may not like you, for presumably false reasons. Maybe the issue is that you are too touchy and that's why you have problems making friends.

For example, I didn't call you a liar. I suggested that a true experience got a little blown out of proportion in an Internet forum. Not like that's ever happened before. It does seem odd that you seem to be the only family who are asked where they come from because they don't have a Scandinavian last name, doesn't it? People have repeatedly said that they've never heard of anything like that happening. But it happens to you ALL THE TIME? How do you explain that?