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greed is good. wall street is going to keep selling products as long as they are buyers. the real problem is, why were they able to sell such bad products at will? these assets must not have been priced properly and that seems to be a fault of ratings agencies and government pushing the GRE's to lend to more subrime borrowers. but maybe the ratings agencies werent so wrong, because part of the reason these assets were secure is the implied backing of the government. since the government did come in with a bailout, i guess they werent so wrong. so the root cause was government.
oh - the ratings agencies weren't misleading the people who were involved in this process. they were well aware. it seems back to 2005/06. the backing of the government wasn't the issue in the collapse. it contributed, so don't think i'm saying it didn't. but it wasn't the cause. but nice try.
so its not their fault. if you can legally sell a product, then why shouldnt you? the people who took the loans were responsible for payment, lenders werent an issue. the real problem is how were they able to give loans to people who couldnt afford them, and still make money? someone was going to have to take on the additional risk/loss further down the line.
sometimes "is it legal" isn't the only test a company needs to pass. some companies are held to ethical requirements too. hence, the entire reason why many aspects of the financial industry should be held up to fiduciary standards as well as legal standards.
and, whether or not what they did was/is legal is still questionable. Slowly, it's been coming out that some of these packaged securities were known to have bad assets in them, and were purposely structured as such, so that companies better on these failing could make money. the only fault of government here is having lax enough regulations for this to be possible.
I've been very skeptical of this Occupy Wall Street circus from the beginning. I've been trying to keep an open mind, but this movement seems to grow more and more absurd. They keep doing things that eat away at their credibility.
First, the organizers helped to spread a rumor of an Occupy Wall Street Radiohead show, prompting thousands more "protestors" to show up, and later blamed the hoax on "miscommunication" within their group.
Then, they take over the Brooklyn Bridge by leaving the pedestrian path and walking & sitting on the roadway, causing it to be closed and resulting in massive traffic delays. Meanwhile, they are crying that the police "trapped" them on the bridge. Hello? You're walking on the damn ROADWAY...where there are CARS.
Today, I wake up to the news that the Occupy Wall Street organizers are encouraging protestors to dress as corporate zombies to taunt financial workers. No, seriously. ZOMBIES. Complete with suit & tie, white makeup, fake blood and fistfuls of Monopoly money. I am not being facetious. WHITE MAKEUP, FAKE BLOOD, FISTFULS OF MONOPOLY MONEY.
And you know something...all of these shenanigans taking place just a few blocks away from the WTC leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. Thousands of corporate financial workers died there. Thousands were injured. We were also honoring the cops that died there. Remember? Just a short month ago, we were mourning the 10th anniversary. Now we are saying that anyone working for "the man" and "the system" are corporate zombies and the NYPD are all thugs? My. What a dramatic flip flop.
And don't even get me started on the celebrities that are "lending their star power" to this movement. Susan Sarandon and Russell Simmons? Are you kidding me? Sarandon makes millions of dollars for a few weeks of "work" making her pretty little movies, and Simmons is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. He's one of the richest men in the corporation known as hip hop. Yeah. These people are the "99%" just like you and me.
i don't know much about what happened with radiohead, so i won't comment on that.
but as for dressing up as something as part of your protests...they are just taking a chapter out of the tea party cause. it draws attention does it not?
blocking the brooklyn bridge traffic. that was obviously intentional to cause delays, even though they said they wouldn't do it. this type of civil disobedience has been done for other protests (shooting of the guy in queens, for instance). i disagree with it. but it's not that outlandish.
some of the workers who dies in WTC were janitors, security guards, etc. it's a huge logical leap to connect the protesting of corporate greed to some sort of speaking out against victims of the WTC tragedy. can we stop linking things to the WTC simply because they occur near the WTC?
as for Sarandon - she works more than a couple weeks on a movie. maybe that doesn't justify her salary to you, but just because she's in the upper portions of the 100% of us doesn't mean she can't believe in the principles of a movement like this. Same goes for Simmons. If someone that believes in something all of a sudden becomes part of the 1%, that doesn't mean they need to start acting like them.
admittedly, i've only followed the stories at a high level so far. but i have no issues with their protesting corporate greed.
if we want to measure protestors on credibility, then we should demand the impeachment of anyone associated with the Tea Party movement, since they have had all sorts of credibility issues.
i don't know much about what happened with radiohead, so i won't comment on that.
It happened just like I said. The Occupy Wall Street organizers spread rumors about a free Radiohead show and then later blamed it on miscommunication. You know how there are people going around calling all of these people dirty, unemployed hippie college kids? Well, this is a good example of why. I know the "dirty unemployed hippie college kid" protestor is a misconception and a gross generalization. But when you have thousands of people all atwitter over Radiohead...freaking Radiohead...it doesn't help your cause. You are basically giving Occupy Wall Street skepticists more ammunition to sneer at your cause. If you even know what your cause is. And that is important: Do you* know WTF you are talking about?
(*By "you" I mean the protestors in general, not YOU, bradykp.)
The Occupy Wall Street group has a video posted on their website asking different protestors why they are there. One protestor, a young college student, proudly proclaims that she is there because "My dad lost his job and now I have to drop out of school because he can't afford to put me in college anymore." I am not even kidding. The spoiled immaturity and sense of entitlement in that statement is astounding.
I am pretty confident that YOU, bradykp, and maybe a handful of others know what you are talking about re: subprime lending, commercial mortgage-backed securities, etc. etc. Or, at least, you have an intelligent understanding of the events that lead us here. But there are a whole lot more people, in my opinion, that don't have a clue about what you are talking about. THOSE are the people I have a problem with, and THOSE are the people who are draining this protest of what little credibility it had in the first place. If you are gonna rabble rouse, block traffic, wait for a free rock concert and dress up like a zombie...and you don't know WTF you are talking about...I have no respect for that.
Protesting a boogeyman named "Wall Street" and protesting an abstract, nebulous concept like "corporate greed" is only slightly less dumb than the Tea Party idiots who go around beating their chests about "socialism" and "communism" and 'Merika becoming a "3rd world country". Two sides of the same coin. Lots of idealistic propaganda being spouted from the angry mouths of bitter people looking for a catch-all scapegoat and eating up the rhetoric with a spoon. The only different is in the scapegoat.
"Rich people/Wall Street are ruining everybody's life!"
"Libs/Muslims/Gays/Mexicans/Welfare recipients are ruining everybody's life!"
Two sides of the same coin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
but as for dressing up as something as part of your protests...they are just taking a chapter out of the tea party cause. it draws attention does it not?
See above regarding my feelings on the Tea Party. In my opinion, taking pointers from them doesn't make you look smart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
blocking the brooklyn bridge traffic. that was obviously intentional to cause delays, even though they said they wouldn't do it. this type of civil disobedience has been done for other protests (shooting of the guy in queens, for instance). i disagree with it. but it's not that outlandish.
That's fine. And since they are breaking the law, they should expect that there will be consequences. Don't go crying to the media that the NYPD "trapped" you on the Brooklyn Bridge. It's disingenuous and the opposite of "civil".
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
some of the workers who dies in WTC were janitors, security guards, etc. it's a huge logical leap to connect the protesting of corporate greed to some sort of speaking out against victims of the WTC tragedy. can we stop linking things to the WTC simply because they occur near the WTC?
Come on. We all know that the WTC was a universal symbol of financial prosperity and Wall Street. The WTC was the capital of Wall Street. It was an icon of corporate America.
Yes. I know lots of janitors, security guards, receptionists, doormen, cashiers, mail clerks, file clerks, interns, temps, secretaries, etc. etc., died there. That goes without saying. I'm not saying that these protestors are speaking out against the victims of 9-11. I'm saying that it is a callous, DUMB stunt in POOR TASTE to have people dress up like bloody suit & tie-wearing zombies walking around downtown near where actual dead suit & tie-wearing bodies rained down from the sky and disintegrated into the street. But this probably NEVER even occurred to Occupy Wall Street protestors. That might even be worse than accusing them of speaking out against the victims of 9-11 (which I'm not doing).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
as for Sarandon - she works more than a couple weeks on a movie. maybe that doesn't justify her salary to you, but just because she's in the upper portions of the 100% of us doesn't mean she can't believe in the principles of a movement like this. Same goes for Simmons. If someone that believes in something all of a sudden becomes part of the 1%, that doesn't mean they need to start acting like them.
I don't have a problem with their salaries. My point is that it's hypocritical for protestors to complain that the "1%" make millions of dollars and live lives of luxury and glamor, but then fawn over glamorous million dollar celebrities and act like these stars are saints for being sympathetic, when really, they are most likely there for the valuable publicity opp (Sarandon has 1 movie coming out in the near future and 4 more in post production). But, fine. Let's say that these celebrities have genuine intentions. It still doesn't change the hypocrisy of the protestors.
All these people milling around with iPhones, Cannon cameras, Sony laptops, North Face backpacks, Coach bags and J. Crew sweaters, grumbling that the rich are too rich...but, oh look! It's Russell Simmons! Lemme get a pic so I can post it on Facebook!
I am pretty confident that YOU, bradykp, and maybe a handful of others know what you are talking about re: subprime lending, commercial mortgage-backed securities, etc. etc. Or, at least, you have an intelligent understanding of the events that lead us here. But there are a whole lot more people, in my opinion, that don't have a clue about what you are talking about. THOSE are the people I have a problem with, and THOSE are the people who are draining this protest of what little credibility it had in the first place. If you are gonna rabble rouse, block traffic, wait for a free rock concert and dress up like a zombie...and you don't know WTF you are talking about...I have no respect for that.
Protesting a boogeyman named "Wall Street" and protesting an abstract, nebulous concept like "corporate greed" is only slightly less dumb than the Tea Party idiots who go around beating their chests about "socialism" and "communism" and 'Merika becoming a "3rd world country".
Does it really matter whether individual protestors know the economics behind this? Like you said, it is mostly college kids and people in their 20s. I look at it as basically a protest that is happening because the economy sucks and these people cant find jobs.
I do think the zombie thing is ridiculous, just because it is stupid, not because it is near the WTC. It is over 10 years later now. It is time to move on in my opinion.
I look at it as basically a protest that is happening because the economy sucks and these people cant find jobs.
when i lived in dc, i used to enjoy watching the protesters. there were a lot of small protests every so often and then the biggest was the world bank protest. i saw these people. these werent normal people. they were college losers, hippy morons and high school losers (the anarchists). i understand times are different, but i bet thats what makes up most of the occupy wall street group.
probably a bunch of pot smoking college kids and various other morons that generally show up to these protests. their mommies should tell them its time to come home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seque5tra
... If you even know what your cause is. And that is important: Do you* know WTF you are talking about? ...
The Occupy Wall Street group has a video posted on their website asking different protestors why they are there. One protestor, a young college student, proudly proclaims that she is there because "My dad lost his job and now I have to drop out of school because he can't afford to put me in college anymore." I am not even kidding. The spoiled immaturity and sense of entitlement in that statement is astounding....
I've seen interviews of the participants on all the major news outlets (including those who try to spin things in opposing viewpoints). I am shocked at how many protesters appear just as you've described -- incoherent, unable to think logically, entitlement mentality, etc.
Earlier today, the group's legal counsel appeared on CNN. Even he spoke like a frakin' retard! In the 21st Century, if ignorance is the opium of the masses these folk sure as heck looked stoned!
If I have time I'm going to swing down there this week and gawk at them.
I thought it would die down by now, but it didn't, and now I'm sort of cheering them on. I haven't been following the story that closely, either.
When I worked downtown I was walking one day near city hall and suddenly realized this large group of angry protestors chanting and carrying signs was coming my way. When they got closer, I saw that most of them were Asian and many of their signs were in Chinese characters. Some were in English, though, and I finally figured out that they were people in the dry-cleaning business protesting some new regulation in the city that was going to cost them money. It was a New York moment.
Anybody know anything about or participating in Occupy Wall Street?
Some of our society's major powers-that-be have recently come under legitimate scrutiny for malfeasance leading to the current world economic malaise. What better way to dupe the average American into thinking that all of this criticism is the illegitimate talk of nonsensical idiots than by staging a rally of nonsensical idiots to publicly launch the criticisms?
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Conspiracy Theory?
