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I agree valley is not "Dangerous" but it is not the best area in the world and is lower socio-economic then the rest of west orange along its neighbors to the west. A note on Livingston, when you talk about saleability down the line, Livingston down the line will be different then it is today. Maplewood, South Orange, Montclair diverisfied then leveled out this decade, West Orange has diversified and is leveling out. The next town is Livingston, I know people wont believe but TRUST ME Livingston will change, give it time but in 20 years Livingston is over 15% black. Again this is not a bad thing its just law of averages.
I agree valley is not "Dangerous" but it is not the best area in the world and is lower socio-economic then the rest of west orange along its neighbors to the west. A note on Livingston, when you talk about saleability down the line, Livingston down the line will be different then it is today. Maplewood, South Orange, Montclair diverisfied then leveled out this decade, West Orange has diversified and is leveling out. The next town is Livingston, I know people wont believe but TRUST ME Livingston will change, give it time but in 20 years Livingston is over 15% black. Again this is not a bad thing its just law of averages.
I'm not understanding your link between "15% black" and "saleability". This is 2010. 20 years from now, it will be 2030. Is there really still a link? What is going to decrease the "saleability"? Will the school system go downhill? Will the crime rate go up?
Of the black people that I am friends with in town now, all are professionals, nice, and not any different from me and my family. This isn't the 1960s. People are much more concerned with people being good neighbors than they are about the color of the person. If what you say comes to fruition, I doubt there will be any "white flight" to cause people to sell their houses below market value.
A note on Livingston, when you talk about saleability down the line, Livingston down the line will be different then it is today. Maplewood, South Orange, Montclair diverisfied then leveled out this decade, West Orange has diversified and is leveling out. The next town is Livingston, I know people wont believe but TRUST ME Livingston will change, give it time but in 20 years Livingston is over 15% black. Again this is not a bad thing its just law of averages.
When I posted about saleability in Livingston, I was strictly talking about 2 things:
PROPERTY TAXES
SCHOOL SYSTEM
I can't believe you are saying that "diversity" (code word: BLACK PEOPLE) detracts from the desirability of a town.
I also can't believe that within the span of 1 week, I am posting on this forum, defending my former town against accusations that it:
1) is ALL exclusive, snobby white people and the only black people in town are in uniforms.
2) is 15% black now, turning more black looking forward 20 years.
So, which is it, people? Are Livingston residents standing at the town gates with their pitchforks and torches with "No Black People" signs? Or are we "Diverse" with a capital "D"?
The amount of wrong information on this forum is astounding.
And some of the views that are tossed around here so nonchalantly are appalling.
I agree with you, I personally dont care what color my neighbors I think diversity is great. I am just saying that a school system with a higher minority population is percieved as not as good. West Orange has great programs just like Livingston, yet people prefer Livingston because the school system is more white, I am not saying I do I am saying in general. I was getting at that for a long term investment Livingston is the same as west orange because in the long term they will be very similar. I appoligize if my comment was percieved as racist, I was taking a shot more at Livingston then at black populations.
I agree with you, I personally dont care what color my neighbors I think diversity is great. I am just saying that a school system with a higher minority population is percieved as not as good. West Orange has great programs just like Livingston, yet people prefer Livingston because the school system is more white, I am not saying I do I am saying in general. I was getting at that for a long term investment Livingston is the same as west orange because in the long term they will be very similar. I appoligize if my comment was percieved as racist, I was taking a shot more at Livingston then at black populations.
Here is where you are wrong. You are assigning the different rankings in the school systems to the degree of minority students in them. This is a false presumption. Livingston was ALWAYS ranked a lot higher than West Orange. I grew up in Livingston. My wife grew up in West Orange. When we were kids, and West Orange was almost all white, the school system STILL ranked much lower than Livingston. The fact is, that West Orange had a big blue collar white population back then, while my parents and all of my friend's parents in Livingston were professionals. My wife's parents sent her and her brothers to Newark Academy, because they loved West Orange, but not the school system.
I live in West Orange and the debate about property taxes and the schools sytem seems to be one that has existed for years.
Here is my take:
The West Orange school system is actually very good. If we were able to compare it to Livingston, soley on the basis of quality of teachers, programs and enrichment, I wouldn't be surprised if we were relatively comparable. Many of my good friends live in Livingston and their children, IMO, are not receiving a better education than mine.
I think the problem is frankly primarily a factor of the demographic make-up of each town.
Given that school ratings are ultimately based on the entire student population's results and not on much else, consider these factors:
West Orange has a significantly larger transient/renter population than Livingston, i.e. less stability for those children to grow in the system and adjust
West Orange has a significantly lower average household income, therefore I think it would be safe to assume that many households have less excess income for tutors and other after-school enrichment programs
West Orange has a significantly higher population of ESL students. I think that affects the parent's ability to be more helpful and involved with their child's education.
Otherwise, I see absolutely no reason why a child can't receive a terrific education in West Orange. I know mine does and is on the AP track in school.
Relative property tax burden now that's a whole other story.
Here is where you are wrong. You are assigning the different rankings in the school systems to the degree of minority students in them. This is a false presumption. Livingston was ALWAYS ranked a lot higher than West Orange. I grew up in Livingston. My wife grew up in West Orange. When we were kids, and West Orange was almost all white, the school system STILL ranked much lower than Livingston. The fact is, that West Orange had a big blue collar white population back then, while my parents and all of my friend's parents in Livingston were professionals. My wife's parents sent her and her brothers to Newark Academy, because they loved West Orange, but not the school system.
from research I did, WO high school was highly ranked in the mid 90s by publications such as the Washington Post. Seems as of late, they generally get ranked around 100 of the NJ schools. I don't necessarily know the history of Livingston (though i did hear that the influx of asian population in the early 80s did help the math scores improve back then - don't actually know if that's true) but I think the moral is, WO schools are plenty good enough, they just aren't among the best in the state. I'm not saying they shouldn't improve, but from conversations I have had on here and out in the world, I think a lof of jersey folks don't realize how good even NJ "average" public schools are compared to many other parts of the country.
from research I did, WO high school was highly ranked in the mid 90s by publications such as the Washington Post. Seems as of late, they generally get ranked around 100 of the NJ schools. I don't necessarily know the history of Livingston (though i did hear that the influx of asian population in the early 80s did help the math scores improve back then - don't actually know if that's true) but I think the moral is, WO schools are plenty good enough, they just aren't among the best in the state. I'm not saying they shouldn't improve, but from conversations I have had on here and out in the world, I think a lof of jersey folks don't realize how good even NJ "average" public schools are compared to many other parts of the country.
Umm, you seem to have been misinformed. I was in the school system in the early 80's and I had less than 5 Asian students in my year. Same goes for the classes ahead of me and behind me. The school system was ranked at the top BEFORE the Asian population grew. In fact, the good school system is probably a large part of the reason the first Asian families decided to settle there. Dont forget, it was a very Jewish town predating the years when many Asian families moved in.
As for West Orange, I'm sure the Washington Post used different criteria than the local NJ folk use. Its easy to rank a school sytem from 200 miles away, but it isn't always reflective of the local's opinions. Even in it's heyday, WO was never ranked at the top in NJ.
...Actually, I shouldn't say that, because I dont know about the mid 90's, but I can say in the late 70s and early-mid 80s it was not ranked highly.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 08-09-2010 at 08:44 AM..
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now that's a whole other story. 
