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Sometimes I think you complain for the sake of complaining. Currently there are countless heavy duty trucks filled with piles of garbage moving across the GW, Holland and Lincoln Tunnels into NJ and using our highways to transport the garbage to dumps across NJ and PA.
They want to put the garbage into sealed containers, load them on barges and transport them to a rail head where the still sealed containers will be placed on trains to be moved to the dump. It sounds like a win-win solution using intermodal freight systems like they are supposed to be used.
No need to spend billions on a tunnel when this can be done far cheaper and still achieve the desired effect.
Because the Rail Tunnel , would go into the Boroughs and eliminate the need for barges. Also it would go onto LI and cut down on Truck Traffic form Jersey to LI and NYC. Eventually you will need a tunnel, so why not build it now ? + It would also improve regional trade , which is kinda of bad atm by rail east of the Hudson.
The problem with the project is that the economics are very tough to justify, just like most rail projects in the NE where space is limited, existing infrastructure is old and environmental concerns are paramount.
The cost of the tunnels themselves in 2000 was just over $2 billion. However, that isn't the whole story. The economic impact was based on carrying double stacked containers through the tunnel. Something that none of the existing infrastructure can handle. Not to mention that rail yards east of NY Harbor lack trans-shipment terminals with anywhere near enough capacity to handle the inbound rail freight. All told to build the trans-shipment facilities, to upgrade the existing infrastructure to handle the increased rail traffic and double stacks and to build the tunnels you are looking at a total cost approaching $7.5 billion, or roughly more than three times what just the tunnels would cost.
If we ignore all the other factors; like no one in Brooklyn, Queens or LI want the trains running through their backyards or to give up space for the trans-shipment yards; We will have spent $7.5 billion to reduce truck traffic on the GW and Verrazano by a whopping 5%-10%.
Considering that the issue is really a NYC, not a NJ issue and Bloomberg has been waffling on opposing and supporting it and the ROI is tenuous at best, thank you Chris Christie for throwing your weight (pun?) behind a project that is cheap, easy to achieve and has a noticeable impact for NJ.
I think we need more rail lines and we need to use more of the ones we have, but the Cross Harbor Tunnel isn't really the most effective way to spend $7.5 billion that we really don't have, especially when the benefit is at best negligible and has little impact on NJ.
The problem with the project is that the economics are very tough to justify, just like most rail projects in the NE where space is limited, existing infrastructure is old and environmental concerns are paramount.
The cost of the tunnels themselves in 2000 was just over $2 billion. However, that isn't the whole story. The economic impact was based on carrying double stacked containers through the tunnel. Something that none of the existing infrastructure can handle. Not to mention that rail yards east of NY Harbor lack trans-shipment terminals with anywhere near enough capacity to handle the inbound rail freight. All told to build the trans-shipment facilities, to upgrade the existing infrastructure to handle the increased rail traffic and double stacks and to build the tunnels you are looking at a total cost approaching $7.5 billion, or roughly more than three times what just the tunnels would cost.
If we ignore all the other factors; like no one in Brooklyn, Queens or LI want the trains running through their backyards or to give up space for the trans-shipment yards; We will have spent $7.5 billion to reduce truck traffic on the GW and Verrazano by a whopping 5%-10%.
Considering that the issue is really a NYC, not a NJ issue and Bloomberg has been waffling on opposing and supporting it and the ROI is tenuous at best, thank you Chris Christie for throwing your weight (pun?) behind a project that is cheap, easy to achieve and has a noticeable impact for NJ.
I think we need more rail lines and we need to use more of the ones we have, but the Cross Harbor Tunnel isn't really the most effective way to spend $7.5 billion that we really don't have, especially when the benefit is at best negligible and has little impact on NJ.
Ic , but we should at least keep the idea of the Cross Harbor Tunnel open for future investment. Ah , your one of a few on here , who agrees with me that we need more Rail lines.
I don't think the Cross Harbor Tunnel is a bad idea, it's just unfortunately like most NE corridor projects going to need a lot of capital and a lot of buy-in from multiple governments and agencies to make it work.
I do agree that we need more rail transit, both freight and commuter. However, the cost of these systems is extremely prohibitive when it comes to building them the way that they need to be built. That cost factor is what drives them to build half-a$$ed projects like the River Line or nothing at all. More rail is needed in the NE, but no one knows exactly how to go about it doing it, let alone paying for it.
Where rail really needs to shine and be expanded on is west of the Appalachians and in the SE. The constraints that exist in the NE tend to disappear out there and I think in many places they would be better off investing in rail lines to eliminate the need for OTR trucking. A future where trains carry the bulk loads to trans-shipment points that are serviced by local dedicated truck fleets is very much achievable in large parts of the country. Another pet project you might be interested in is the debate for the Long Beach port. Currently there is a battle being waged between adding a dedicated freight truck only highway running into and out of the port versus bulding a dedicated rail line that would carry the freight.
A freight tunnel would be more efficient and take other trucks off the road. to which dump , out of state or in state , that is the question? hahah , complain for the sake of complaining , nah. On this topic i make good points , but i wouldn't think you understand them. Its more of a Rail / Transit community type thing , people who like me think it would be better just to do the Tunnel. Its complicated for an average person to understand.
Are you going to be footing the bill for that multi-billion tunnel? Because last time I checked, the state of New Jersey was already $11 billion in the hole with no end in sight.
Ic , but we should at least keep the idea of the Cross Harbor Tunnel open for future investment. Ah , your one of a few on here , who agrees with me that we need more Rail lines.
I agree we need more rail lines. But they have to be high speed and affordable for users. Around here, nobody takes the train anywhere because it chugs along slowly and costs a bundle to get anywhere of interest. I have no reason to use the train rather than my car.
Honestly , i hate Freight trains , but this Tunnel and line are needed.
If you hate freight trains you're not really committed to the idea of rail infrastructure as a means of economic prosperity, energy conservation, and the new green economy. Freight rail is vitally important to all of this. 1 gallon of diesel fuel can move 1 ton of freight 436 miles by rail. The best part about freight rail is that most of our aging post industrial cities are already equipped for it-the infrastructure just needs refurbishment rather than new construction, which is why passenger and freight rail are important to these areas. Maybe you don't mean to, but as NJGOAT insinuates, you're coming off like a foamer. I don't think I need to explain what that is.
Are you going to be footing the bill for that multi-billion tunnel? Because last time I checked, the state of New Jersey was already $11 billion in the hole with no end in sight.
Eventually , i think the Tunnel Will Happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGambler
I agree we need more rail lines. But they have to be high speed and affordable for users. Around here, nobody takes the train anywhere because it chugs along slowly and costs a bundle to get anywhere of interest. I have no reason to use the train rather than my car.
High Speed? NJT Averages 80mph , and ppl still take it. And Amtrak Regional is booked to 90% Capacity. haha , is that so 400,000 people use 1200 trains daily along the Northeast Corridor line. Around 13-15 million people use Transit / Rail each day in the Bos-Wash Corridor, that is expected to climb 35 million over the next 2 decades. Each NJT line is used by at least 8,000. Each Tran can hold up to 400 people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badfish740
If you hate freight trains you're not really committed to the idea of rail infrastructure as a means of economic prosperity, energy conservation, and the new green economy. Freight rail is vitally important to all of this. 1 gallon of diesel fuel can move 1 ton of freight 436 miles by rail. The best part about freight rail is that most of our aging post industrial cities are already equipped for it-the infrastructure just needs refurbishment rather than new construction, which is why passenger and freight rail are important to these areas. Maybe you don't mean to, but as NJGOAT insinuates, you're coming off like a foamer. I don't think I need to explain what that is.
I'm more of a Passenger Train person and i c Freight Trains in the way of expanding or Passenger Rail network. Your calling me a Foamer, how dare you. Wait a sec only a Engineer / Conductor would know the term "Foamer"
Last edited by DarkWolf; 05-18-2010 at 04:37 PM..
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Ah , your one of a few on here , who agrees with me that we need more Rail lines.
Wait a sec only a Engineer / Conductor would know the term "Foamer"
