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Have a car because it takes to places faster. Also, don't have to wait for trains/buses and don't have to deal with the overcrowded buses/train with a bunch of crazies/bums/beggars/gangbangers breathing down my neck.
My question is, why wouldn't you have a car?
if I live in a neighborhood with an adequate transit network I have no reason to have one. now or in the future. I do not want to be car-dependent and I am never owning a car if I live in an area with an adequate transit network (a body does not have to live in Manhattan or Downtown BK or LIC or Park Slope to have an adequate transit network).
the issue with crazy people on trains and buses depends partially on the neighborhoods through which a person travels. it takes a lot for me to avoid using some transit service on account of some strange occurrence; granted I have never dealt with anything terrible on any transit service.
if you own a car because you need to avoid dealing with crazy people then I am sorry you have to do that. there are also crazy people on the road who drive horribly and make it harder for law-abiding drivers, but that is another story.
for some of my other reasons for not owning a car please see posts #16, 18, 28, 35, 41, 43, 48, 49, 52, 58, 61, 77, 78, 79, 93, 94, and 97.
Last edited by detroitdiesel; 05-27-2013 at 10:31 AM..
Reason: about Manhattan, DBK, LIC, PKS, crazy people etc
if I live in a neighborhood with an adequate transit network I have no reason to have one. now or in the future. I do not want to be car-dependent and I am never owning a car if I live in an area with an adequate transit network (a body does not have to live in Manhattan or Downtown BK or LIC or Park Slope to have an adequate transit network).
the issue with crazy people on trains and buses depends partially on the neighborhoods through which a person travels. it takes a lot for me to avoid using some transit service on account of some strange occurrence; granted I have never dealt with anything terrible on any transit service.
if you own a car because you need to avoid dealing with crazy people then I am sorry you have to do that. there are also crazy people on the road who drive horribly and make it harder for law-abiding drivers, but that is another story.
for some of my other reasons for not owning a car please see posts #16, 18, 28, 35, 41, 43, 48, 49, 52, 58, 61, 77, 78, 79, 93, 94, and 97.
People will do whatever they feel suits them individually. If you want a car, get one . If you don't want a car, don't get one. See how simple it is?
A lot of traffic on this thread, a couple responses.
•One member stated BRT would not be fast enough for certain travelers (citing East Queens). Actually, it can be very fast. You can create dedicated Midtown and Downtown bound express service plus separate local destinations inside East Queens. Imagine Flushing and Jamaica connected via BRT. I wish the city would give an expansive Staten Island network a try, so that people can see how well it can operate, then roll it out across the five boroughs.
•Another member stated NYC is not some "compact European city". Paris? London? May want to do a land area comparison for comparable population.
I would like to also add: Most New Yorkers live inside or around the core. The highest population densities are in Manhattan, the West Bronx, North Brooklyn, and West Queens. Most of these people can easily access Midtown or Downtown (or any location within their confines), quickly, without a POV.
I am pretty confident to believe that most of the opposition commenting here reside in Staten Island, East Queens, or the far East and North Bronx where private automobile ownership is highest (and the least city population). The vocal minority.
Shopping: The vast majority of New Yorkers shop locally. There are some that shop outside the city, however I consider this counter productive considering the cost of ownership. Unless you really desire a particular item, NYC has it all. Personally, I find NYC to have the very best options for all kinds of shopping in the metro area (by a lot).
Travel: I disagree a car gives you freedom. When I think travel, I think Italy or Mexico, not NJ or Long Island. POVs are only efficient within the metro area. If your trying to get away, I know I personally wouldn't want to drive entire day just to get to Florida. If you frequent the suburbs, I can understand a car for a justified convenience.
Commute: Again, most New Yorkers live close to the core. Most people that work in Midtown do not drive there, even if they live in Jamaica or Flushing. For those that work inside their own borough, you have a number of options. A car is not necessary in every situation. A lot of trips people drive can be biked or even walked (I **** you not, I have come across healthy people that will drive a couple blocks to work). Most trips in this city are short. Some bus routes are not bad either, especially in areas like East Queens where traffic is generally lighter on local streets.
I expect a significant decline in ownership once congestion pricing finally arrives (it will). The East River Bridges must be tolled, and the Midtown and Downtown CBDs should incur a congestion charge. For the benefit of the majority. This is only the start, NYC is taking on the automobile big time. More plazas are being built, lanes are being narrowed, highways may cease to exist (Sheridan), parking is going to continue to disappear (see zoning changes and more fair land utilization). It has to happen.
Just wanted to throw these out there.
Also, here is some important statistical data presented by the DOT:
12% of New York City's working population commutes to work via walking or bicycle.
23.4% drive alone to work via POV.
54.7% commute via public transportation.
26% live within a 2.5 mile radius of their place of employment.
45% live within 5 miles from work.
10% of all auto trips are under one-half mile.
22% are under 1 mile.
56% are under 3 miles.
Last edited by nykiddo718718; 05-28-2013 at 12:41 AM..
You're grating because you so easily ignore or dismiss the realities that many of us face, day in day out. Go ahead, write us off as "the vocal minority", it makes your European-centric, car free utopian vision easier to push on the unwashed masses who don't see your "enlightened" view.
If your idea of travel is jumping on a plane to go to Italy or Mexico, then you're obviously not in the same economic situation as some of us. And it is not my car that limits me from traveling halfway around the world on a whim.
Do you have kids? I hate assuming things about others, but I'm guessing no. Reality is that public transportation, bikes and walking are not practical for the every day routines of a family with children. Oh sure, PT could serve that family as part of their work commutes, but outside of work, the usability quickly declines. As others have pointed out, traveling with children and all the accoutrements required is not conducive to PT.
So go ahead, flippantly discount what other people consider travel and freedom and whatever else you need to discount to make your plan work - you know, that plan you guys intend to force on us anyway. We'll always be around to do our best to counter your ideas if for no other reason than to show that social engineering backed by government might isn't the answer to every issue.
Last edited by Airborneguy; 05-28-2013 at 01:20 AM..
Fools who want the "vocal minority" to pay for their transportation.
I at this point support more charges for drivers- but only if 100% of the funds are used to improve and increase road infastructure and the money goes back to drivers. NYC and it's suburbs roads are embarrassingly bad and unable to serve the vast volume of riders.
What a terribly user unfriendly city to get around by either car or public transit if you're not riding entirely on a single line.
You're grating because you so easily ignore or dismiss the realities that many of us face, day in day out. Go ahead, write us off as "the vocal minority", it makes your European-centric, car free utopian vision easier to push on the unwashed masses who don't see your "enlightened" view.
If your idea of travel is jumping on a plane to go to Italy or Mexico, then you're obviously not in the same economic situation as some of us. And it is not my car that limits me from traveling halfway around the world on a whim.
Do you have kids? I hate assuming things about others, but I'm guessing no. Reality is that public transportation, bikes and walking are not practical for the every day routines of a family with children. Oh sure, PT could serve that family as part of their work commutes, but outside of work, the usability quickly declines. As others have pointed out, traveling with children and all the accoutrements required is not conducive to PT.
So go ahead, flippantly discount what other people consider travel and freedom and whatever else you need to discount to make your plan work - you know, that plan you guys intend to force on us anyway. We'll always be around to do our best to counter your ideas if for no other reason than to show that social engineering backed by government might isn't the answer to every issue.
Maybe vocal minority was a little cold but it is what it is. Your opinion is as valid as mine. However there is no denying that most people in NYC do not need to drive,
I would personally love to see an even more walkable, pedestrian oriented NYC. It's one of my favorite aspects of this city. If I wanted to drive, I would move to an automobile oriented area like suburban Phoenix (no thanks).
With such density, we cannot sustain any more autos. We are already over capacity. City planners realize this and the city is slowly doing what it can do reduce incentives for ownership and nonessential auto based trips. Unfortunately, automobiles are not only an inconvenience but a public health threat. From pollution and obesity to collisions.
The perks of policy like Congestion Pricing is that it keeps out those that don't need to be in the most traffic choked area of NYC. This will make it easier for those that must drive among other more dramatic benefits for the majority of people that live and/or work in that area but do not drive.
No, I don't have kids either. A walkable environment makes it so that you don't have to travel long distances with them on a regular basis. Imagine a community with most needs within walking distance, that actually summarizes a good chunk of NYC.
I see you live in Staten Island (guessing a south or central neighborhood), there's your problem right there. SI residents should be fighting for upzonings so they have more very walkable, pedestrian oriented communities rich in amenities and for better mass transit like true BRT and eventual subway links to the rest of the city (but they're not).
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp
Fools who want the "vocal minority" to pay for their transportation.
I at this point support more charges for drivers- but only if 100% of the funds are used to improve and increase road infastructure and the money goes back to drivers. NYC and it's suburbs roads are embarrassingly bad and unable to serve the vast volume of riders.
What a terribly user unfriendly city to get around by either car or public transit if you're not riding entirely on a single line.
The vocal minority (drivers) does not cover the cost for our transportation network. All tax payers subsidize auto infrastructure (which is the most expensive form of transportation infrastructure).
I actually find NYC quite easy transportation wise. You jump on a subway or bus and stand or sit until you reach your destination. Most of the city is covered by subways while buses fill the gaps. Cars travel much more slowly here, but again, our roads are over capacity. Cars are inefficient/unsustainable at urban levels of density. Bicycles are surprisingly a very quick way to get around and neighborhoods generally offer a lot within limited distances, highly walkable.
As for congestion pricing, I would also like to see funding dedicated to public transit. However, let's just do this already. Reduced congestion in the core creates enough benefits to justify its existence period. Speed cameras are likely coming very soon as well.
Last edited by nykiddo718718; 05-28-2013 at 02:24 AM..
•One member stated BRT would not be fast enough for certain travelers (citing East Queens). Actually, it can be very fast. You can create dedicated Midtown and Downtown bound express service plus separate local destinations inside East Queens. Imagine Flushing and Jamaica connected via BRT. I wish the city would give an expansive Staten Island network a try, so that people can see how well it can operate, then roll it out across the five boroughs.
I would like to also add: Most New Yorkers live inside or around the core. The highest population densities are in Manhattan, the West Bronx, North Brooklyn, and West Queens. Most of these people can easily access Midtown or Downtown (or any location within their confines), quickly, without a POV.
I am pretty confident to believe that most of the opposition commenting here reside in Staten Island, East Queens, or the far East and North Bronx where private automobile ownership is highest (and the least city population). The vocal minority.
Shopping: The vast majority of New Yorkers shop locally. There are some that shop outside the city, however I consider this counter productive considering the cost of ownership. Unless you really desire a particular item, NYC has it all. Personally, I find NYC to have the very best options for all kinds of shopping in the metro area (by a lot).
Travel: I disagree a car gives you freedom. When I think travel, I think Italy or Mexico, not NJ or Long Island. POVs are only efficient within the metro area. If your trying to get away, I know I personally wouldn't want to drive entire day just to get to Florida. If you frequent the suburbs, I can understand a car for a justified convenience.
Commute: Again, most New Yorkers live close to the core. Most people that work in Midtown do not drive there, even if they live in Jamaica or Flushing. For those that work inside their own borough, you have a number of options. A car is not necessary in every situation. A lot of trips people drive can be biked or even walked (I **** you not, I have come across healthy people that will drive a couple blocks to work). Most trips in this city are short. Some bus routes are not bad either, especially in areas like East Queens where traffic is generally lighter on local streets.
I expect a significant decline in ownership once congestion pricing finally arrives (it will). The East River Bridges must be tolled, and the Midtown and Downtown CBDs should incur a congestion charge. For the benefit of the majority. This is only the start, NYC is taking on the automobile big time. More plazas are being built, lanes are being narrowed, highways may cease to exist (Sheridan), parking is going to continue to disappear (see zoning changes and more fair land utilization). It has to happen.
Just wanted to throw these out there.
Also, here is some important statistical data presented by the DOT:
12% of New York City's working population commutes to work via walking or bicycle.
23.4% drive alone to work via POV.
54.7% commute via public transportation.
26% live within a 2.5 mile radius of their place of employment.
45% live within 5 miles from work.
10% of all auto trips are under one-half mile.
22% are under 1 mile.
56% are under 3 miles.
Shopping: I do not always like shopping locally because I like to stock up on sales so I am not constantly picking things up everyday, driving up my food bill. Unlike most people, I pretty much have a budget set-up in Excel and document how all of my money is spent. Since moving, I'm now at least a fifteen minute walk from ANY kind of supermarket/store/etc. I also bulk shop because I can buy what I need on sale with my husband, who is on an opposite schedule from me. (I have a lot of joint and muscle problems so carrying things isn't always a reality for me. You'd probably look at me and think I'm young and lazy.)
Travel: That's nice that you think of Italy and Mexico as travel but that is not a reality for everyone. There is no way my parents would have ever had the money to take us out of the US---we never even left the east coast growing up! My husband and I go hiking and camping a lot because it's very cheap. Or we can drive upstate and stay somewhere for free. We won't be able to take a real vacation this year as far as I can tell so these little trips help me keep my sanity. I love getting away from here and going upstate when I can.
Commute: I agree that there are many people who should walk that don't. I usually walk to my physical therapy which is almost two miles away but some days, I just can't do it. Given how many people have physical ailments and/or how many elderly there are, I'm not surprised if 10% of all auto trips are under one-half mile. (I'm just saying to take those into account since it's not all "lazy" people who can't be bothered.)
My job is only about a mile and a half from me but there is no public transportation for me to take there. It's almost like---I can take a bus, sort of, from here to there. And then I have to walk most of the way, so what's the point? (I work at night so walking in a desolate place is not something I want to do.) They got rid of the bus that would have been only a block from where I need to be. It's annoying to be so close yet not have public transportation work in my favor.
Congestion pricing is one I have to think about because I think about people who have to commute to work via car (my dad drives from Brooklyn to SI or people who are told they must have a vehicle for their job (I've interviewed for positions like this) and it's not like their jobs are going to compensate them for this.
Overall: Even with all of the cars and the congestion, the problem is that people are very focused on their time. If you are a busy person, you want to use your time efficiently. Many trips by public transportation (I'm focusing on this b/c I cannot physically ride a bike) take far too long for people. It takes me an hour to get to W-Burg via train when it takes me fifteen minutes by car. When I worked in the city full-time while living in Brooklyn and working on my M.S. in the Bronx, it would take me an hour and a half to get from the Bronx back to Brooklyn at night by train (worse on the weekends when I had a Saturday class) after a long day of work and classes. That trip would otherwise have been thirty minutes by car.
Yes, we're all so close and we have an amazing public transportation system but those are the realities. People aren't going to want to spend an hour and a half to get somewhere when they could get there in half an hour. (Which is why I always drive to Riverdale to visit my friend rather than take the train to the bus.) Unless they address these issues (and given how long it takes for them to make any additions to public transit or how many routes they change/remove on a regular basis), I don't see what you want happening.
Even people who do travel internationally often do local travel as well. Particularly if you're going with a group, it maybe easier to drive to say the beach for the day. Or the casino or whatever you do.
People that I know who have only done public transportation, from Central Queens think the Bronx is some far away place. But by car from Central Queens to the North Bronx is 25 MINUTES. By train its an hour and one half.
Particularly if you're pressed for time and you need to do this on a more regular basis (work or school) it gets to the point where a car is just the best option. It saves you TIME, and TIME is money.
As for grocery shopping, not everyone shops locally all the time. Though I do use my local grocery stores for somethings, I also got shopping at Trader Joes and Whole Foods a lot. Granted, I use the subway system for that, but still.
I think when people say New Yorkers this or New Yorkers that, they speaking on how they personally live and how their friends live. In which case you should say this is what me and my friends do.
Shopping: I do not always like shopping locally because I like to stock up on sales so I am not constantly picking things up everyday, driving up my food bill. Unlike most people, I pretty much have a budget set-up in Excel and document how all of my money is spent. Since moving, I'm now at least a fifteen minute walk from ANY kind of supermarket/store/etc. I also bulk shop because I can buy what I need on sale with my husband, who is on an opposite schedule from me. (I have a lot of joint and muscle problems so carrying things isn't always a reality for me. You'd probably look at me and think I'm young and lazy.)
If you write down your uses for owning a POV and they only consist of occasional local travel, commuting and food shopping are you really saving money by comparison shopping? A Zip Car subscription (local getaways), Fresh Direct or delivery from local supermarkets (food) and a MetroCard (commute) combined may be cheaper. I understand you have a unique situation (medical). Of course I would not want you to involve yourself in an activity that will cause you pain. The problem is those that are healthy yet choose to drive a couple miles rather then take mass transit, bike or walk. The % of people citywide who own a car should be much lower.
Quote:
Travel: That's nice that you think of Italy and Mexico as travel but that is not a reality for everyone. There is no way my parents would have ever had the money to take us out of the US---we never even left the east coast growing up! My husband and I go hiking and camping a lot because it's very cheap. Or we can drive upstate and stay somewhere for free. We won't be able to take a real vacation this year as far as I can tell so these little trips help me keep my sanity. I love getting away from here and going upstate when I can.
The money I save on not having a car + insurance + fuel + parking + occasional tickets + maintenance is why I travel often.
Quote:
Commute: I agree that there are many people who should walk that don't. I usually walk to my physical therapy which is almost two miles away but some days, I just can't do it. Given how many people have physical ailments and/or how many elderly there are, I'm not surprised if 10% of all auto trips are under one-half mile. (I'm just saying to take those into account since it's not all "lazy" people who can't be bothered.)
It sounds like you have an immobilizing condition. Again, I wouldn't expect you to have to walk long distances or bike. However, you are a very small % of the population. Many senior citizens rely on public transit and do just fine. Much older people have compromised driving abilities and shouldn't drive period.
Quote:
My job is only about a mile and a half from me but there is no public transportation for me to take there. It's almost like---I can take a bus, sort of, from here to there. And then I have to walk most of the way, so what's the point? (I work at night so walking in a desolate place is not something I want to do.) They got rid of the bus that would have been only a block from where I need to be. It's annoying to be so close yet not have public transportation work in my favor.
What area of the city do you live in?
Quote:
Congestion pricing is one I have to think about because I think about people who have to commute to work via car (my dad drives from Brooklyn to SI or people who are told they must have a vehicle for their job (I've interviewed for positions like this) and it's not like their jobs are going to compensate them for this.
Congestion Pricing would not have a negative financial effect on a Brooklyn to SI auto commute. The congestion charge would effect Manhattan south of E 96th St/W 110th. Well, there would likely be a little less net traffic along that route.
Quote:
Overall: Even with all of the cars and the congestion, the problem is that people are very focused on their time. If you are a busy person, you want to use your time efficiently. Many trips by public transportation (I'm focusing on this b/c I cannot physically ride a bike) take far too long for people. It takes me an hour to get to W-Burg via train when it takes me fifteen minutes by car. When I worked in the city full-time while living in Brooklyn and working on my M.S. in the Bronx, it would take me an hour and a half to get from the Bronx back to Brooklyn at night by train (worse on the weekends when I had a Saturday class) after a long day of work and classes. That trip would otherwise have been thirty minutes by car.
Many automobile trips in NYC are slower or equal to mass transit. Bicycles are always faster for shorter distances door to door (especially in the core of the city). Most New Yorkers do not face hour long trips via mass transit. Most New Yorkers reside in Manhattan, North Brooklyn, the West Bronx and West Queens; along with most amenities.
I wouldn't buy a car just to visit my the couple friends of mine that live way out there. I just tell them to meet me wherever (which most often is Midtown/Downtown). If I would like to visit, I can always take a cab. Not like visit them all the time in their apartments.
Quote:
Yes, we're all so close and we have an amazing public transportation system but those are the realities. People aren't going to want to spend an hour and a half to get somewhere when they could get there in half an hour. (Which is why I always drive to Riverdale to visit my friend rather than take the train to the bus.) Unless they address these issues (and given how long it takes for them to make any additions to public transit or how many routes they change/remove on a regular basis), I don't see what you want happening.
^-See above.
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