Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thanks for the "heads up", I will re-watch it right after I finish my response here.
Not sure if you are from the area, but the WSH has a lot of access points, including grassy areas adjacent to the road. NYPD motorcycles could have gotten onto the hwy very quickly if need be, and this still does not explain where the normally assigned HWY patrol was that day.
I've read that there were over 200 911 calls that day about the bikers, and more importantly, the cops had already set up roadblocks to stop them from entering manhattan or going to Times Square. Given that they were tipped off from last year's fiasco in Times Square, they had ample time to not only prevent riders from entering the city, but also dealing with scattered splinter groups determined to get into the city.
Lots of them that allow entering onto the HWY other than standard entrance lanes. The cops had places where if they were heading southbound, they could have crossed over and gotten onto the north-bound side.
There was a stretch of bikers for quite a distance, but again, the NYPD had ample prep time and should have had eyes in the sky along the WSHWY, since it has been a magnet for biker groups like this in the past. The moment they were blocked from coming in at other manhattan entry points, the cops needed to spread out their patrols to the most likely places the bikers would scatter too, and the WSH was certainly one of them.
A very good question.
You have to know manhattan; there are only so many places the bikers could physically go to that are spacious enough to allow the kind of space they desire; FDR, BQE, Van Wyck, LIE, etc., that time of day would be packed - but the WSHWY from about 50th street would be relatively open.
This sounds like a reasonable estimate, but as is the case with parades, etc., extra cops are always called and brought in to staff events from a wide number of precincts, so with the ample amount of lead time there would have been plenty of badges to throw at the bikers.
The incident took place at a point where the SUV and other traffic on the WSHWY were beginning to accelerate above the usual 10-20 mph they would have to travel from lower manhattan until the 50s. In that distance there would have been patrol cars riding northbound, starting with the posted ones at the Holland Tunnel turn off on the hwy itself.
We only see 6.5 minutes on the video, there were over 200 calls made to 911, with other videos that day recorded by people on the street no near the WSHWY. It is clear that the cops had lots or time to prepare, and were being called on to perform their duty - but failed miserably.
I would expect the NYPD had air resources launched. They may well have been tracking the cycles. But that is only part of it. They have to assemble a large force at the right place...that takes a while. And by the time they realize an event has occurred the event is moving down the road at 100+ mph.
Not sure if you are from the area, but the WSH has a lot of access points, including grassy areas adjacent to the road. NYPD motorcycles could have gotten onto the hwy very quickly if need be, and this still does not explain where the normally assigned HWY patrol was that day.
They could have been ahead of the bikers or behind them, or occupied with the bikers on the ramps.
Quote:
I've read that there were over 200 911 calls that day about the bikers, and more importantly, the cops had already set up roadblocks to stop them from entering manhattan or going to Times Square. Given that they were tipped off from last year's fiasco in Times Square, they had ample time to not only prevent riders from entering the city, but also dealing with scattered splinter groups determined to get into the city.
I still do not think they had enough lead time to mount a major, coordinated plan to deal with the bikers. It seems that a large number of bikers actually converged at the home of Lao, the hollywoodstuntz guy who organized it, and the ride started there. If NYPD knew exactly when it was going to happen, the obvious thing to do would be to blanket Lao's neighborhood. Perhaps monitoring twitter is the best way to get intelligence.
How do you prevent riders from entering the city altogether? how many officers would it take to do that? These guys were not following traffic laws at all. If one takes off up a sidewalk or goes the wrong way down a one way street, do you follow him, even if you are an NYPD cycle cop?
Quote:
Lots of them that allow entering onto the HWY other than standard entrance lanes. The cops had places where if they were heading southbound, they could have crossed over and gotten onto the north-bound side.
Thanks.
Quote:
There was a stretch of bikers for quite a distance, but again, the NYPD had ample prep time and should have had eyes in the sky along the WSHWY, since it has been a magnet for biker groups like this in the past. The moment they were blocked from coming in at other manhattan entry points, the cops needed to spread out their patrols to the most likely places the bikers would scatter too, and the WSH was certainly one of them.
We still disagree about the prep time.
Quote:
You have to know manhattan; there are only so many places the bikers could physically go to that are spacious enough to allow the kind of space they desire; FDR, BQE, Van Wyck, LIE, etc., that time of day would be packed - but the WSHWY from about 50th street would be relatively open.
But there were still other places that would need to have a police presence. Every cop in the city could not be allocated to dealing with the bikers. There were other things that needed their attention, too.
Quote:
This sounds like a reasonable estimate, but as is the case with parades, etc., extra cops are always called and brought in to staff events from a wide number of precincts, so with the ample amount of lead time there would have been plenty of badges to throw at the bikers.
But with events like those, the lead time is weeks or months - even a year for annual ones. I really do not think that had that much time for this.
Quote:
The incident took place at a point where the SUV and other traffic on the WSHWY were beginning to accelerate above the usual 10-20 mph they would have to travel from lower manhattan until the 50s. In that distance there would have been patrol cars riding northbound, starting with the posted ones at the Holland Tunnel turn off on the hwy itself.
I still think some of those cars were dealing with the on ramp blockade.
Quote:
We only see 6.5 minutes on the video, there were over 200 calls made to 911, with other videos that day recorded by people on the street no near the WSHWY. It is clear that the cops had lots or time to prepare, and were being called on to perform their duty - but failed miserably.
But those calls were coming from places other than the stretch of highway that would eventually be the site of the chase. How would a dispatcher know to send a car to where the Liens were before the chase started (or before the Liens called 911)?
My guess is there will be a civil suit and the suv driver will be paying for the paralyzed biker for life. Unless he was an actual attacker and not just there along for the ride it does not look good for the driver.
LOL, you are kidding, right? There's a better chance of the mets winning this year's world series than that happening. You couldn't find a judge or a jury made up of people other than mieses' family and the bikers themselves who would attribute blame onto the SUV driver. This is as clear a case as I've ever seen; I'm just surprised that the other bikers haven't tried to kill the video recorder.
I still do not think they had enough lead time to mount a major, coordinated plan to deal with the bikers.....We still disagree about the prep time.
I think you're missing a key fact causing your confusion; the bikers had converged on Times Square a year ago, so the NYPD actually had a year of lead time to prepare for this situation:
LOL, you are kidding, right?There's a better chance of the mets winning this year's world series that that happening. You couldn't find a judge or a jury made up of people other than mieses' family and the bikers themselves who would attribute blame onto the SUV driver. This is as clear a case as I've ever seen; I'm just surprised that the other bikers haven't tried to kill the video recorder.
You keep forgetting that what can presented in a court of law is different than the bits and pieces that is being reported on the internet.
No one knows what happened or what was said.
We don't know if the paraplegic guy just stopped to look back to see what was happening and without warning was mowed down. No one knows what his intentions were. It's all guesswork now.
The Cruz dude that clipped him is the one that needs to answer to WHY he did it.
Never in my wildest or boldest imaginations would I even "think" to cut in front of an SUV or truck, slow down and "test" to see whether he would slow down or not.
Many unanswered questions, one of them being where the cops (besides the ones doing the beatdown)?
You keep forgetting that what can presented in a court of law is different than the bits and pieces that is being reported on the internet. No one knows what happened or what was said. We don't know if the paraplegic guy just stopped to look back to see what was happening and without warning was mowed down. No one knows what his intentions were. It's all guesswork now.
It doesn't matter - mieses did not even have a legal right to be on the highway - he did not have a drivers' license.
And any attorney worth $.10 showing the video simply has to present the following:
1-the large number of bikers surrounding and attacking the vehicle
2-mieses' lack of legal standing to even be on the highway
3-the fear and threat of personal harm present to the SUV passengers, leading to...
4-adorable baby pictures being shown of the daughter
5-nearly forgot - they can show mieses' history of felonious behavior, which is permissable in civil court:
and it's game over. Mieses' attorney would have to prove Lien acted recklessly and negligently without cause, but his desire for self-preservation due to the vehicle being surrounded, threatened and attacked will be enough to insulate Lien from any liability. Lien attempted to escape after being forced to stop illegally on a highway where stopping is not allowed, the bikers did not have the authority to prevent his vehicle from traveling.
The city knows they could never convict him in a criminal case even if he killed mieses, and while civil trials have lower standards of proof for judgement, the video shows the vehicle being surrounded by a large number of bikers acting with hostile intent. There is nothing there mieses' attorney can pursue - go ask an attorney you know, they will affirm my comments.
I think you're missing a key fact causing your confusion; the bikers had converged on Times Square a year ago, so the NYPD actually had a year of lead time to prepare for this situation:
But they did not know the specific date that it would happen. Last year it was in August. Does NYPD stay geared up all summer and fall for the return of the bikers?
"Cook compared rides such as Hollywood's Block Party to mobile flash-mobs, with groups of riders on powerful motorbikes performing wheelies and other stunts as they weave through traffic."
"So far this year, New York police say they've seized 1,440 motorcycles, quad and dirt bikes, including 57 the day of the melee, as they crack down on illegal and dangerous motorcycle riding. At least 437 people have been arrested, including 187 for reckless driving or reckless endangerment, not including those arrested in the assault.
But Cook said enforcement is difficult when hundreds or thousands of motorcyclists take over a street or highway. They are sure to heavily outnumber police officers available to catch them if they begin performing illegal maneuvers, as Kansas City police discovered while trying to combat Hollywood Stuntz-style rallies on Interstate 70. In June, about 40 bikers blocked a section of the highway as they performed stunts while being videotaped. The bikers scattered when police arrived, and only two were arrested.
'The police are constantly getting calls when you get a pack of these guys,' Cook said. 'But how do you catch them?'"
"Police investigators had been gathering information on the ride for several days, spokesman John McCarthy said, including on Twitter and Facebook, the same venues on which bikers traded word of the impending event with the hashtag #hbp2013."
"Police arrived at biker meetup locations and inspected licenses and registrations and looked for illegal alterations. They set up checkpoints throughout the city, targeting bridges and tunnels, Mr. McCarthy said. Throughout the city, police seized 55 motorcycles, issued 68 summonses, and made 15 arrests."
From a participant bike rider (Rios):
"The bikers approached the Brooklyn Bridge, and police were waiting. 'The beginning of the pack kind of sped through the checkpoint and we kind of overwhelmed the cops,' Mr. Rios said."
"Once they crossed the bridge, a group of bikers headed west, up 12th Avenue toward the West Side Highway and Henry Hudson Parkway, Mr. Rios said. Motorcyclists 'took over' the road, Mr. Rios said, to prevent car drivers from colliding with bikers."
I think it is unfair to portray the NYPD as being totally unprepared and doing nothing. The plan was for the bikers to take over Times Square again. Not even the bikers knew what they would do when they were blocked from there. How can you expect NYPD to predict what happened?
If you genuinely did - which is doubtful if you actually lived in Staten Island -
lol. Your logical standing is so strong I can no longer even read your posts without breaking down into a pool of muttering goo. Us Staten Island peons have no place on your vaunted highways and byways of the big city.
If you look at the chase video again and pay attention to the right hand side of the road, you will see the guy taking the video wave his arm as he comes to the on ramps and more bikes join the chase. In spots, there are cars and bikes stopped where the ramp merges with the highway.
The whole chase took about 6 1/2 minutes. With a limited access highway, there are fewer points for the police to join the chase. The police have to be made aware of the problem and then find it. If the nearest car is ahead of the chase, his only option is to wait for it to get to him. Is there a grassy median or turn around point for emergency vehicles in that stretch of road? If the nearest car was behind the chase, all he would see is empty road ahead of him. A crucial bit of missing information is how long it took for police and EMS to get to where Mieses was.
There were police at some of the on ramps. They made arrests and confiscated some bikes. They were deliberately distracted by some of the bikers in order to clear the stretch of road the other riders wanted closed.
The bikers did not have a permit for their shenanigans, obviously. NYPD knew it would happen this year, but they focused their effort on Times Square. How were they to know that this incident would happen in precisely that spot on that highway?
Folks keep saying that there were so many cops available that it is unreasonable that there was not one on the road at precisely the place the chase took place. I have seen the figure 35,000 for the entire size of the NYPD. That makes it sound like all 35,000 are on duty at one time. Even assuming no one was out sick or on vacation, only about a third at most would be on duty at one time. Since it was a Sunday, many with desk jobs would not be working, so that brings it down even further. Then, there are people whose job descriptions would not even put them in a position to intervene in an incident on the freeway. So now we are down to less than 10,000 for the whole city at that specific time. Even if you are used to seeing police on the freeway, what are the odds that a routine patrol would put a car at a specific place at a specific time? And don't you think the bike crew deliberately chose a place where there was not a cop?
The entire chase was over before a helicopter could be launched and get there. Why would NYPD put one up ahead of time? How would they justify the expense? Depending on the size of the helicopter, it may cost $400 to $800 per hour to operate.
Police do have to be careful when they get involved in a high speed chase. People not involved in the chase can get hurt. They may have been told not to try to catch speeding bikers. Patrol cars are pretty much useless against bikes anyway if the biker does not want to stop. However, you do really have to have some hard evidence to support the allegation they were told to completely stay off the freeway. There were bikes in other parts of the city, too, which diverted manpower.
During the chase you see very few four wheel vehicles of any kind. A few are on the ramps at merging points: stopped with bikes next to them. I firmly believe that the bikers controlled the ramps and tied up any NYPD that were at the ramps and potentially otherwise would have been on the freeway at the time of the chase.
Contrary to the obviously superior power of deductive reasoning based on persnal anecdotes other posters have been using recently in this thread, THIS is the best post in about 30 pages.
LOL, you are kidding, right? There's a better chance of the mets winning this year's world series than that happening. You couldn't find a judge or a jury made up of people other than mieses' family and the bikers themselves who would attribute blame onto the SUV driver. This is as clear a case as I've ever seen; I'm just surprised that the other bikers haven't tried to kill the video recorder.
just watch, civil suits can have very different outcomes. it may pan out no different than had he had a gun , took the shot in panic and hit someone on the ride who was in the area but not an attacker.
don't think for one second this can't take that turn in a civil suit.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
