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Reminds me of the celebrations about ESA. 12 Billion spent and that's all we got?. Yay us!!
Yea, the best things going for East Side Access opening are not having to pour huge amounts of money into East Side Access every year as well as tangentially related projects that didn't necessarily require East Side Access like removing grade crossings on LIRR and adding another set of tracks on the main line--East Side Access needed these projects to work, but these also could have been done without the East Side Access project. It does open up berths in Penn Station that are slated for Metro-North which also allows a capacity increase for MNR lines east of the Hudson, but how that'll play out is still unknown.
Really though, the project at the top level wasn't well thought out because it targeted yet another terminal station in Manhattan. This meant doing a massive twin tunnel, double-decked terminal station with a total of eight tracks and a massive interlocking north of it, and that's to feed in and out of just two tracks. That's really antiquated planning and much of the incredible cost and complexity is because this was built as a terminal station with a massive interlocking--remember, these trains are long and doing such a large twin tunnel, double-decker means that an incredible volume had to be excavated and reinforced. For likely a similar sum of money, a series of much, much smaller volume train stations could have been done going down the East Side of Manhattan and either ending in a simpler diamond crossover with tail tracks or connecting to the double-track fed Atlantic Terminal to route the trains back out to Long Island. This would have been way more useful for everyone (LIRR suburbs and NYC residents alike) and less complicated in operations. That is what essentially was done for London's Crossrail project for a similar in magnitude cost but with 13 miles of double track and nine new stations that were far smaller than the massive Grand Central Madison project and no need for a massive interlocking. Supposedly we can still make this happen by extending out from Grand Central Madison, but it becomes a lot less palatable given the massive time and resources already put into making a terminal.
Yea, the best things going for East Side Access opening are not having to pour huge amounts of money into East Side Access every year as well as tangentially related projects that didn't necessarily require East Side Access like removing grade crossings on LIRR and adding another set of tracks on the main line--East Side Access needed these projects to work, but these also could have been done without the East Side Access project. It does open up berths in Penn Station that are slated for Metro-North which also allows a capacity increase for MNR lines east of the Hudson, but how that'll play out is still unknown.
Really though, the project at the top level wasn't well thought out because it targeted yet another terminal station in Manhattan. This meant doing a massive twin tunnel, double-decked terminal station with a total of eight tracks and a massive interlocking north of it, and that's to feed in and out of just two tracks. That's really antiquated planning and much of the incredible cost and complexity is because this was built as a terminal station with a massive interlocking--remember, these trains are long and doing such a large twin tunnel, double-decker means that an incredible volume had to be excavated and reinforced. For likely a similar sum of money, a series of much, much smaller volume train stations could have been done going down the East Side of Manhattan and either ending in a simpler diamond crossover with tail tracks or connecting to the double-track fed Atlantic Terminal to route the trains back out to Long Island. This would have been way more useful for everyone (LIRR suburbs and NYC residents alike) and less complicated in operations. That is what essentially was done for London's Crossrail project for a similar in magnitude cost but with 13 miles of double track and nine new stations that were far smaller than the massive Grand Central Madison project and no need for a massive interlocking. Supposedly we can still make this happen by extending out from Grand Central Madison, but it becomes a lot less palatable given the massive time and resources already put into making a terminal.
ESA is a good idea but the planning and construction was terrible. Fifteen years while other countries take less than five for such a project. A ton of people dead that could have benefited from the project had it been completed earlier.
It would have been better off connecting Penn Station and Grand Central. That way you could get NJ Transit or PATH service into the station. There are a ton of people that live in Manhattan but work in Jersey City, Hoboken, and Newark.
Connecting Grand Central to Penn Station would literally be New York City's version of Crossrail in London and it could be done but they need a way to build that in less than five years time. You would have all Metro-North lines, Hudson, Harlem, and New Haven, along with LIRR and NJ Transit operate through running rather than terminate and go backwards. It would actually be a game changer for the entire region and get us closer to being European.
Problem is it would require NYC, NJ, and possibly CT working together on the planning and might require mergers. For example, PATH and NJ Transit would have to become part of the MTA which would make more sense.
ESA is a good idea but the planning and construction was terrible. Fifteen years while other countries take less than five for such a project. A ton of people dead that could have benefited from the project had it been completed earlier.
It would have been better off connecting Penn Station and Grand Central. That way you could get NJ Transit or PATH service into the station. There are a ton of people that live in Manhattan but work in Jersey City, Hoboken, and Newark.
Connecting Grand Central to Penn Station would literally be New York City's version of Crossrail in London and it could be done but they need a way to build that in less than five years time. You would have all Metro-North lines, Hudson, Harlem, and New Haven, along with LIRR and NJ Transit operate through running rather than terminate and go backwards. It would actually be a game changer for the entire region and get us closer to being European.
Problem is it would require NYC, NJ, and possibly CT working together on the planning and might require mergers. For example, PATH and NJ Transit would have to become part of the MTA which would make more sense.
ESA as in bringing LIRR in a split to the East Side isn't a bad idea especially since the 63rd Street Tunnel was already there and waiting for service, but the top level plan doesn't make sense because it goes into an incredibly expensive interlocking and then series of terminal berths in order to handle double-track set of trains coming in.
Connecting Grand Central to Penn Station can be a good idea, but it depends a lot on how it's done. If it's just another set of tracks from Grand Central to Penn Station, but you're still terminating those trains but in Penn Station instead, you're still **** out of luck because you need to make yet another set of massive interlockings and terminal berths. If it was done in a way where afterwards you through-run past Penn Station, whether in another set of tunnels under the Hudson or do a weird U where you then head west and then north of Penn Station along the Empire Service tracks (which would need to have its single-tracked part become double-tracked), then it could be fine. However, going in from the east of Penn Station is already imbalanced with four tracks going in from the east, then on the west just the pair of tracks going west of the Hudson and a single track going north. The imbalance right now is so bad that NJT Trains in rush hour actually sends completely empty trains further past Penn Station eastwards, underneath Manhattan, underneath the East River, and into Queens to turn them around in Sunnyside Yards. Adding another set of two tracks coming in from the east of Penn Station just makes the imbalance even worse.
If there was such a thing as good regional planning with actionable results, then the much delayed second set of tracks across the Hudson into Penn Station would be done by now and the Empire Service tracks going north along the west side became double tracks, then that's six tracks to the west of Penn Station. That can then be balanced by the existing four tracks going into Penn Station from the east plus another set of new two tracks as you've mentioned coming in from Grand Central. That's pretty nice, but I do think looping down from Grand Central to lower Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn is valuable and doing so with East Side Access would have at least for the time being avoided more of the cluster**** of negotiating among the balkanized commuter rail agencies of the Tri-State Area since it would be just LIRR trains coming in and out of both sides.
In near-ish terms, the second set of tunnels across the Hudson seem likely to proceed though would take a while. That at least should be done and the trains through-running Penn Station by forcing NJT Trains, LIRR, and eventually MNR to work with each other. They can even before that force NJT Trains and LIRR to work together with just the two sets of tunnels so that the NJT Train services and the shorter branches of LIRR become combined and through-run with *maybe* occasional through runs with the Hudson Line along Empire Service. That at least technically takes fairy little work and construction and then would be ready to make the second set of tunnels across the Hudson's a lot more useful from the very beginning. This is sort of similar to the arrangement that Paris has with the RER A when they connected commuter rail services (it's nuts that we already have a lot of this infrastructure in, but just refuse to run it in a reasonable fashion).
Long term plan though should be six in and out through-running Penn Station (four Hudson river tracks plus two Empire Service on the west to match four East River tunnels plus two from Grand Central on the east), and at least four going south of Grand Central with two tracks headed to Penn Station and two tracks going to downtown Brooklyn with a transfer station at 33rd Street on the East Side of Manhattan. If you really wanted to be a stickler for balance, then Grand Central currently has four tracks coming in from MNR along with the two from LIRR, so it should probably be another set of tracks going *somewhere* like veering into the MNR and NJT Hoboken Terminal across the river for that to be through-running as well.
All three airports in the metro area are absolute vomit. Just got back from London and it was a breeze using the Heathrow Express. Arrived in JFK and all I have is one back pack and a small roller. Took the POS AirTrain monorail to Jamaica then transfer to LIRR. Jamaica looks like a sh-thole and this was upgraded in 2017!
Neither of the three airports you can take the subway, LIRR, or NJ Transit to the airport. Newark might be the closest one that has a direct rail but like JFK you have to pay additional fee to use the AirTrain monorail.
Meanwhile I see scumbags in this city masturbating over some new bar or going "ohhh ahhh" over some new terminals.
If we want to be world class city, we need to make our airports FUNCTIONAL, not adding another liqueur shop. Last month in Chicago I took the blue line from the airport to the city and it was easy. Now they are gonna add Metra(their version of LIRR, Metro-North, NJ Transit) to the airport. Just embarrassing how this city turns out.
Cuomo's LGA plan was pathetic and he should have been stomped and kicked for that stupid plan.
If anyone disagrees on one seat direct rail rides to our airports or is a third world cab driver that thinks your precious rides will be "stolen", go f yourself and back to your country.
That is what is nice about Chicago. The subways go right to the airports from the Downtown Loop!
What is the point of a major city airport that is unreachable conveniently
It's pretty embarrassing that airport access via public transportation here is so poor. Especially considering how important NYC is globally, with people from all over coming for various reasons, it really is baffling.
ESA as in bringing LIRR in a split to the East Side isn't a bad idea especially since the 63rd Street Tunnel was already there and waiting for service, but the top level plan doesn't make sense because it goes into an incredibly expensive interlocking and then series of terminal berths in order to handle double-track set of trains coming in.
Connecting Grand Central to Penn Station can be a good idea, but it depends a lot on how it's done. If it's just another set of tracks from Grand Central to Penn Station, but you're still terminating those trains but in Penn Station instead, you're still **** out of luck because you need to make yet another set of massive interlockings and terminal berths. If it was done in a way where afterwards you through-run past Penn Station, whether in another set of tunnels under the Hudson or do a weird U where you then head west and then north of Penn Station along the Empire Service tracks (which would need to have its single-tracked part become double-tracked), then it could be fine. However, going in from the east of Penn Station is already imbalanced with four tracks going in from the east, then on the west just the pair of tracks going west of the Hudson and a single track going north. The imbalance right now is so bad that NJT Trains in rush hour actually sends completely empty trains further past Penn Station eastwards, underneath Manhattan, underneath the East River, and into Queens to turn them around in Sunnyside Yards. Adding another set of two tracks coming in from the east of Penn Station just makes the imbalance even worse.
If there was such a thing as good regional planning with actionable results, then the much delayed second set of tracks across the Hudson into Penn Station would be done by now and the Empire Service tracks going north along the west side became double tracks, then that's six tracks to the west of Penn Station. That can then be balanced by the existing four tracks going into Penn Station from the east plus another set of new two tracks as you've mentioned coming in from Grand Central. That's pretty nice, but I do think looping down from Grand Central to lower Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn is valuable and doing so with East Side Access would have at least for the time being avoided more of the cluster**** of negotiating among the balkanized commuter rail agencies of the Tri-State Area since it would be just LIRR trains coming in and out of both sides.
In near-ish terms, the second set of tunnels across the Hudson seem likely to proceed though would take a while. That at least should be done and the trains through-running Penn Station by forcing NJT Trains, LIRR, and eventually MNR to work with each other. They can even before that force NJT Trains and LIRR to work together with just the two sets of tunnels so that the NJT Train services and the shorter branches of LIRR become combined and through-run with *maybe* occasional through runs with the Hudson Line along Empire Service. That at least technically takes fairy little work and construction and then would be ready to make the second set of tunnels across the Hudson's a lot more useful from the very beginning. This is sort of similar to the arrangement that Paris has with the RER A when they connected commuter rail services (it's nuts that we already have a lot of this infrastructure in, but just refuse to run it in a reasonable fashion).
Long term plan though should be six in and out through-running Penn Station (four Hudson river tracks plus two Empire Service on the west to match four East River tunnels plus two from Grand Central on the east), and at least four going south of Grand Central with two tracks headed to Penn Station and two tracks going to downtown Brooklyn with a transfer station at 33rd Street on the East Side of Manhattan. If you really wanted to be a stickler for balance, then Grand Central currently has four tracks coming in from MNR along with the two from LIRR, so it should probably be another set of tracks going *somewhere* like veering into the MNR and NJT Hoboken Terminal across the river for that to be through-running as well.
Don't forget we got screwed over by Chris Christie. We could have had at least PATH service inside Grand Central if we did not interfere with the ARC project.
Another short-term plan is to extend the 7 from Hudson Yards to Penn Station or the S train from Porth Authority to Penn Station. At least that would allow better crosstown traffic.
And yes, extending trains between Grand Central and Penn Station just so they terminate is retarded. It's possible some trains may need to terminate, but most should pick up additional passengers and continue onto the next destination. That in essence is what real through running is all about.
Don't forget we got screwed over by Chris Christie. We could have had at least PATH service inside Grand Central if we did not interfere with the ARC project.
Another short-term plan is to extend the 7 from Hudson Yards to Penn Station or the S train from Porth Authority to Penn Station. At least that would allow better crosstown traffic.
And yes, extending trains between Grand Central and Penn Station just so they terminate is retarded. It's possible some trains may need to terminate, but most should pick up additional passengers and continue onto the next destination. That in essence is what real through running is all about.
This is exactly why Governors in NY and NJ should sign campaign pledges to support mass transit expansions or else you end up with fat ****s like Christie or pedophiles like Cuomo.
Wish the MTA would create a subway system of the E train going to JFK and extend the N/W to go to Laguardia. Whats sad is that all three trains have direct access to these airports. Wish the Path train also went to newark
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