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Don't know much about either place, but I wouldn't exclude either southeastern Indiana or farther east in Northern Kentucky without a thorough study.
Let me give you a tip here that is never, ever, ever, ever dwelt on.... There was once upon a time an idea to build a nuclear power plant along the Ohio river to provide electricity for the general area as far away as Dayton (the one in Ohio). It was started and so were the cost over-runs.
If there is a serious underlying problem with the region (Dayton included, TomJones123 and Ohioan58) it's electricity.
The water is good, some of the best in the country, not everywhere but essentially. Food is very close by. There are plenty of roadways and highly based communications. The political power is very strong. Cincinnati especially is very into social services. The schools generally speaking aren't bad and are plentiful. The hospitals have had some bad incidents, but there are good (knowledgeable) doctors around. There are economic bases such as P&G even though the auto industry is pretty dead. And, there are even small electric "organizations" around outside of the realm of the biggies (as I recall there's one northeast of Dayton around Clark county).
If there is a serious underlying problem with the region, it's electricity. And, there are serious problems with that in many parts of the country.
Yes. I identified this problem last year when I learned that coal fired power plants are going to be shut down and will impact OH and KY to the extreme. Both states produce most of their electricity from coal fired plants and when they start shutting down in 2015 my guess is that we'll see brown outs and black outs. I am going to use solar panels to compensate but that does not address the larger problem for homes and businesses that don't have the means to install solar panels and can provide enough energy for their daily needs.
Just checked that board again and I could not believe the latest posts. One of those jerks is telling me that I am a fool for not buying into marketing data or studies to determine the feasibility of my proposed business. None exist for low power radio stations because they serve such a limited market area and most are non commercial in nature. So, we owners have to do our own research and trust our own judgment when choosing a place. I'm finished with that place.
BTW. If anyone can tell me if there is a company where I can purchase marketing data for a two mile radius of my house please let me know. :-) To the best of my knowledge I can find data for a specific zip code, city or town, county etc. but not for a small radius from a given point. If I am in error please let me know.
It is a shame Middletown appears to continually decline. A number of years ago we used to drive from Mason to Town Place Mall. It was a pleasant drive and we enjoyed the mall. With time it gradually went downhill and shops closed to the point it was depressing so we quit going. I also read about the sale of the mall but am pessimistic anyone can pump enough life into it, especially with the newer Outlet Mall just down I-75 in Monroe.
For many years my golfing buddies and I made the trip to Middletown to play the Weatherwax Golf Course several times a season. We considered it one of the nicest municipal operated courses around. But two years ago we found the course in a horrible state of disrepair, virtually unplayable. I read where the number of rounds being played was steadily going down and as a result Middletown did not have the money for upkeep. Middletown City Council is debating whether to try and sell the course or just shut it down and let it return to a nature preserve.
It is a shame Middletown appears to continually decline. A number of years ago we used to drive from Mason to Town Place Mall. It was a pleasant drive and we enjoyed the mall. With time it gradually went downhill and shops closed to the point it was depressing so we quit going. I also read about the sale of the mall but am pessimistic anyone can pump enough life into it, especially with the newer Outlet Mall just down I-75 in Monroe.
For many years my golfing buddies and I made the trip to Middletown to play the Weatherwax Golf Course several times a season. We considered it one of the nicest municipal operated courses around. But two years ago we found the course in a horrible state of disrepair, virtually unplayable. I read where the number of rounds being played was steadily going down and as a result Middletown did not have the money for upkeep. Middletown City Council is debating whether to try and sell the course or just shut it down and let it return to a nature preserve.
Not surprising. I can tell that it was once a very nice little city. But it is evident there is a lack of pride and ambition on the part of the city leadership that is now filtering down to the residents. Instead of trying to welcome new people they seem to be discouraging new blood and business.
I am not saying AK steel is the root of Middletown's problems, but probably a major contributor. I say that because without AK Middletown is a goner.
The original company Armco Steel was the bulwark of Middletown for decades, pumping a lot back into the local economy. Across the Warren Co boundary they built a fair sized man made lake. On one side of the lake was Armco park, an employee family recreation center with picnic, fishing, boating, short golf course, etc. On the other side of the lake was the championship designed Shaker Run Golf Club, intended to be Armco's answer to the renowned NCR courses in Dayton.
Note... NCR Country Club is still a viable entity in Dayton. That is because it is a private club and even though NCR's headquarters also flew the coup in Dayton, the club has sufficient membership to sustain it. There must still be some money around Dayton.
With the formation of AK (Armco Kawasaki) Steel things naturally began to change. Competition in the steel industry forced lower production costs. AK has other production facilities besides Middletown in Ohio - Mansfield, Zanesville, Rockport, Coshocton in addition to the Butler Works outside of Pittsburgh, PA. If you don't recognize those names, you might also expect they have lower labor rates.
With time, other changes have been made. Armco Park was handed over to Warren Co. to operate, it is now called Warren Co. Armco Park. Shaker Run never quite made it as a private club, so it was turned into a public facility, in my mind high priced. Had to pay that debt off somehow. Shaker Run, for years rated the #1 public access golf course in the State of Ohio, was just flat out sold. Recent visits have told me they are no longer #1, maybe not even #50. You can only exist on reputation so long, especially when not deserved.
But to me the biggest change has been moving the AK Steel headquarters to West Chester. West Chester? Middletown should have done anything within reason and legaility to keep them there. Your historical largest and best known employer moving their headquarters out of town? Why not just hang a sign out saying we are asking to be second rate? I would have torn down several old city blocks and offered to build them a new headquarters just to keep them there.
But as you say, don't know who is running Middletown today, but their vision seems to barely extend past the front door.
I've been in worse places as well. And on paper I've seen worse. The % of people living below the poverty level is a bit high but the median income there is fairly respectable per household and the median housing price is not terrible either.
Based upon the kind of response I am getting on that board, I see a lot of people crying and whining about their quality of life and they don't have the guts to try to do something positive to improve their city. I don't need that attitude at all. Been through it before and it is counterproductive to creating a decent quality of life or developing a healthy small business.
Ok, let me give you a little bit more on my background then.
I am a Middletown native. I spent the first 14 years of my life there. I grew up in an Appalachian neighborhood close to the city. All of my neighbors were originally from the same area of KY. Some were amazing people who served as my role models, some tried various roundabout ways to kill me (and did kill family pets) over a property dispute. But alas that culture is in many places and not just Middletown (and it is dying out in Middletown).
I have seen where Middletown has been, and I can tell you where it is going to go in the near future. As a resident, the city won't be getting better.
Middletown, as Kjbrill mentioned, was doing very well a few years ago. Unlike his later statement, though, I will tell you the current dire economic situation of Middletown stems directly from the AK layoffs.
To give you an idea, Towne Mall was almost at 100% occupancy in 2004. Now is it far below 50%. Its decline happened quickly after the strike, as most of the town lost any ability to make purchases there. AK brought in the scabs, worked its management nearly to the point of collapse (they had to do their own work, the work of anyone who decided to leave, and train all of the scabs), and could not have cared less if they came to an agreement with the union or not.
Eventually, the union conceded enough that AK let them back in. But the jobs pay less, the town is poorer, and AK moved on. Their HQ is now separated from the town they destroyed, and they will keep squeezing everything they can out of that mill until the EPA finally shuts it down. That's when Middletown will truly die.
Either way, the whole process will be turmoil for its residents. If Middletown got smart, they would start demolishing neighborhoods. Then they need to actively recruit distribution centers and other large uses to build over old neighborhoods and capitalize on the city's great transportation infrastructure.
I'm sorry, but Middletown is going to have a rough road ahead. If you want cities that will probably be doing a lot better in 10 years since they have already hit rock bottom, try Hamilton or Dayton. I'm not kidding.
I realize you have a perspective having grown up there. But I believe you hit the nail on the head once you mentioned the strike. I doubt if the company called the strike. For quite a period of time unions had the attitude all they needed to do was strike and the company quickly would capitulate. Well this time that did not happen. Strikes are expensive to companies, they lose production and shipments, irritating customers, etc.
Well AK did not capitulate. Yes they worked management people to keep up production. They likely also shifted production to other facilities. It also gave them the impetus to move the headquarters out of Middletown. But to say AK destroyed Middletown I disagree, if anyone destroyed Middletown it was the unions picking absolutely the wrong time to strike thinking same ole same ole.
The continuing battle over the coke plant is doing nothing to salve sore wounds. Coke is a vital ingredient in high grade steel production. Having to transport it long distances just increases costs. It is like Middletown wants to run AK out of town, and they may succeed.
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
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WILW, I think I found your threads. Wow. Especially one sociopath whose screen name starts with "acc.." And you have other forumers backing the guy up, but he's a pure a-hole. I see what you mean.
Just a reality check... if you posted a similar question about Cincinnati here, you would get nowhere near this negativity. Looking at the one thread you posted that has three pages of replies, it's difficult to find one mostly positive take on Middletown. That should tell you something.
I live not real far from Middletown and I've done business and shopped there for years. The people in Middletown are generally infuriatingly stupid, rude and just plain trashy. That's a judgement call and subjective, to be sure. I just don't like the people there. As far as the MUSA forum, I have a screen name there but I find posting or spending any time there is a waste.
Have you considered smaller cities or towns in this area?
Mason. Or Springboro. Both quite nice and upscale. Lebanon has some of the same problems as Middletown of having a human stock that is distinctly "People of Walmart", but it may be wide open for a radio station like this, and it's not a mini-Detroit as Middletown is. Or South Lebanon. All of these towns are near large, affluent suburban populations, lots of shopping, business parks, freeways and employment and recreational opportunities.
But to say AK destroyed Middletown I disagree, if anyone destroyed Middletown it was the unions picking absolutely the wrong time to strike thinking same ole same ole.
The continuing battle over the coke plant is doing nothing to salve sore wounds. Coke is a vital ingredient in high grade steel production. Having to transport it long distances just increases costs. It is like Middletown wants to run AK out of town, and they may succeed.
If I came off as in support of the union workers, I apologize. That I did not mean to do haha.
Yes, you are 100% correct. The union killed AK. I would add that AK killed Middletown, which was killed by the union.
Regardless, AK management could have taken steps to make Middletown a better, less polluted community, but they chose profits (or when the industry tanked, staying viable) over satisfying their stakeholders. That was a stupid move on their part.
The AK worker's union (teamsters?) asked for way too much and gave way too little. Pensions, large health care packages, equivalent wages to college educated people? And in return many of them would get high on drugs / drunk / perform sexual acts on the job while producing a bad product. Sorry, but they had it coming. They needed to be cut at the knees.
Who I feel sorry for in this whole situation is middle-management and the engineers. They are the ones who have been squeezed. Pre-strike, they used to work about 45-50 hours a week. Now they work 90 for the same pay and no ability to leave (because face it... who else is going to hire someone with a background in the steel industry in this area?)
And the Coke plant... I think that's more of a Monroe vs. Middletown issue. Middletown gains the tax revenue while Monroe gets the pollution. As far as I know, Middletown residents are happy about the SunCoke plant.
I don't think Middletown will ever try to impede anything AK wants to do. They haven't in the past. But I do think that a day might come when environmental regulations become too stringent for steel to produced in the country any longer. That's when Middletown will die (or be freed of the AK curse, depending on how you view it).
I just don't agree that steel production is not capable due to environmental regulations. We certainly should be able to employ the technology making steel production not only viable but profitable. Especially the type of steel AK produces, high grade alloy based specialty steel.
Middletown needs to get on their knees and beg AK to upgrade their facilities there. The anti-AK crowd needs to go someplace else. They have absolutely no idea how to replace AK as an employer. Their feeble attempts to bring other types of business into Middletown are classical failures.
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