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Does anybody have the numbers on the percentage of people living downtown/midtown throughout the years?
I don't know the statistics, but I'm sure that number has gone up significantly in the last 10-12 years. Many old buildings were converted to condos/apartments, and big developments brought more people downtown. Downtown isn't slowing down, either. We are all aware of the current developments happening downtown so I won't bother listing them all, but the demand to live in this area of town is obviously increasing. Not to mention what is happening just to the West in Midtown.
If the city can continue this momentum in downtown and midtown, I think Omaha (specifically the eastern section) will transform itself.
Streetcars and/or lightrail is tough. I think the demand could already be there with what we have in a small area (UNMC, Creighton, Midtown Crossing, Mutual, Kiewitt, UP, Conagra, Holland, Orpheum, Filmstreams, Rose Theater, Joslyn, Old Market, TD Stadium, the CLink, etc). The problem is that most people in Omaha are not acclimated to public transportation (which is sad considering how extensive our street car system used to be).
If Omaha randomly decided to build light rail tomorrow, I don't think it would be very successful right away. Omaha is car-centric for obvious reasons, and that mentality won't go away immediately. Omaha needs to encourage public transportation first, possibly by revamping the Metro entirely and show that public transportation is a viable resource.
I don't know. I'm thinking (typing?) out loud at this point.
You know, I personally wish we could just build one route ASAP and all the people that are opposed will begin to see its positive affect as many "super-mixed use" projects will start to pop up around the route. From there, the city just gets more dense and will demand more public transportation. I literally think it's only a matter of having an example for people to see some real success. Density commands density. We would get our initial density from immovable transit and that density will breed more density and more demand for more public transit.
It would appear that sprawl is definitely an issue on the west side of Omaha as thousands of acres of good farmland are turned into housing developments. Omaha needs to diversify its housing developments in suburban locales to be more like that of Milwaukee. Milwaukee features higher density and mixed using suburban housing with far more town houses, condexes, and smaller lots.
Does anybody have the numbers on the percentage of people living downtown/midtown throughout the years?
I don't know the statistics, but I'm sure that number has gone up significantly in the last 10-12 years. Many old buildings were converted to condos/apartments, and big developments brought more people downtown. Downtown isn't slowing down, either. We are all aware of the current developments happening downtown so I won't bother listing them all, but the demand to live in this area of town is obviously increasing. Not to mention what is happening just to the West in Midtown.
If the city can continue this momentum in downtown and midtown, I think Omaha (specifically the eastern section) will transform itself.
Streetcars and/or lightrail is tough. I think the demand could already be there with what we have in a small area (UNMC, Creighton, Midtown Crossing, Mutual, Kiewitt, UP, Conagra, Holland, Orpheum, Filmstreams, Rose Theater, Joslyn, Old Market, TD Stadium, the CLink, etc). The problem is that most people in Omaha are not acclimated to public transportation (which is sad considering how extensive our street car system used to be).
If Omaha randomly decided to build light rail tomorrow, I don't think it would be very successful right away. Omaha is car-centric for obvious reasons, and that mentality won't go away immediately. Omaha needs to encourage public transportation first, possibly by revamping the Metro entirely and show that public transportation is a viable resource.
I don't know. I'm thinking (typing?) out loud at this point.
I don't have past numbers(beyond 10 years), but I do have a current map and it clearly shows that the eastern part of the city is where most of the people live (unlike the claims that most people live in west Omaha, which is silliness).
It also shows that the eastern part of Omaha (east of the interstate) is growing and much of west Omaha is loosing population, which is a good thing. It's not till you get outside of Omaha that populations start growing again.
I don't have past numbers(beyond 10 years), but I do have a current map and it clearly shows that the eastern part of the city is where most of the people live (unlike the claims that most people live in west Omaha, which is silliness).
It also shows that the eastern part of Omaha (east of the interstate) is growing and much of west Omaha is loosing population, which is a good thing. It's not till you get outside of Omaha that populations start growing again.
No. Your map shows that the population density is (obviously) much greater in East Omaha. But if you flip to total population (which is what would matter when studying mass transit), West Omaha, Papillion, La Vista and Bellevue DWARF East Omaha.
All high population density means is more people are living in a smaller area. To better illustrate this, it could show a higher population density if there were only 100 people living in downtown Omaha, so long as those 100 people all lived within a block of each other. Papillions density might be 50 people living within a block of each other, but they have a total population of 5,000. However, looking at it that way, one might make the mistake of thinking that it was a higher population in downtown.
No. Your map shows that the population density is (obviously) much greater in East Omaha. But if you flip to total population (which is what would matter when studying mass transit), West Omaha, Papillion, La Vista and Bellevue DWARF East Omaha.
Papillion, La Vista and Bellevue are ALL sarpy county and don't count when talking about omaha.
And you got that backwards. population density is what matters in mass transit. People will not walk more than a few blocks to take a bus. So a census tract with 8,000 people per square mile will be more attractive for mass transit that another with 3,000 per square mile, even if that tract has a much higher population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarley55
All high population density means is more people are living in a smaller area. To better illustrate this, it could show a higher population density if there were only 100 people living in downtown Omaha, so long as those 100 people all lived within a block of each other. Papillions density might be 50 people living within a block of each other, but they have a total population of 5,000.
you forgot to take into account the area around them where no one lives. That too is taken into account when figuring density. So if you have 1 square mile of land with 100 people on it you have 100 people per square mile. whether they all live in one building or in small houses all over that 1 square mile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarley55
However, looking at it that way, one might make the mistake of thinking that it was a higher population in downtown.
Going by the map, there might just be more people living downtown. It all depends on what one calls downtown. If you include the area along the interstate then there is no doubt that downtown blows away Papillion. If not, then it's close.
lastly the total population of the census tracts in west Omaha have more population because they are much bigger.
For those having trouble using it, it shows the population of downtown (20th St. to the river) to be 3,900. But many of the similar sized blocks of land (roughly 1 square mile) in West Omaha have just as much population. For example, Lindenwood has 5,003 people, Eagle Run 4605 people, Stonybrook 6,133 people, etc.
Then when you look at population density, downtown has 5,009/sq mile, but the most dense place in Omaha appears to be just south of Leavenworth between 24th and 32nd, which is 15,350/sq mile. So by the density theory, we should be putting the street car in the ghetto south of Leavenworth between 24th and 32nd. I'm sure the people who stand outside All Nations liquor store would appreciate a trolley.
Papillion, La Vista and Bellevue are ALL sarpy county and don't count when talking about omaha.
Well you better hope mass transit people count these populations, otherwise what is considered metro Omaha shrinks pretty fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harshbarj
And you got that backwards. population density is what matters in mass transit. People will not walk more than a few blocks to take a bus. So a census tract with 8,000 people per square mile will be more attractive for mass transit that another with 3,000 per square mile, even if that tract has a much higher population.
No one is arguing that downtown Omaha ISN'T the most attractive option in the area for mass transit. The argument is that, even if downtown has 8,000 people per square mile (which it doesn't), it still isn't enough total population to support mast transit. Because after you service those high population density areas for the day, you are still going to come up way short of what you need money-wise to support the whole system. So if its going to involve downtown, it has to be built around moving outer populations in and back out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harshbarj
Going by the map, there might just be more people living downtown. It all depends on what one calls downtown. If you include the area along the interstate then there is no doubt that downtown blows away Papillion. If not, then it's close.
Yes, but that isn't downtown, so why would anyone consider it just for a mass transit study? Additionally, how many of those people do you think actually work in downtown? Based on the demographics, and the type of downtown we have, I would argue that MOST people who work downtown, actually live way out west and commute into work everyday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harshbarj
lastly the total population of the census tracts in west Omaha have more population because they are much bigger.
But you'll also note that the suburbs have SEVERAL areas of high population instead of just 1 or 2.
Let me just clarify my position. I am in favor of mass transit. But unfortunately for some people here with delusions of what downtown Omaha really is, its going to have to be a system that carries outer suburb people into the downtown/airport area, as opposed to a system that services mostly the downtown/midtown population. Chicago's Metra line, without all of the stops in between the outer burbs and downtown, is probably a good model. We aren't there yet.
I guess to me it just makes too much sense to have a starter line as soon as possible. It really is a chicken egg situation. Some people want more density to start it. Others say the density will follow it.
I personally think the demand/density is there for a line from UNMC to 10th. Midtown and Downtown are becoming more and more popular by the day. Property values are going up pretty dramatically the further east you get. It is obvious people want to live here.
The base is there and obviously people living further east are more apt to use mass transit than people in West Omaha.
Also there is no better urban development catalyst than mass transit. Buildings like this:
Couldn't be built fast enough in the area around the line. That dead area between MTC and 19th street would disappear, quickly.
I guess to me it just makes too much sense to have a starter line as soon as possible. It really is a chicken egg situation. Some people want more density to start it. Others say the density will follow it.
I personally think the demand/density is there for a line from UNMC to 10th. Midtown and Downtown are becoming more and more popular by the day. Property values are going up pretty dramatically the further east you get. It is obvious people want to live here.
The base is there and obviously people living further east are more apt to use mass transit than people in West Omaha.
Also there is no better urban development catalyst than mass transit. Buildings like this:
Couldn't be built fast enough in the area around the line. That dead area between MTC and 19th street would disappear, quickly.
I agree with that. Unfortunately mass transit is usually prohibitively expensive in most cases to use that as a catalyst.
I agree with that. Unfortunately mass transit is usually prohibitively expensive in most cases to use that as a catalyst.
I agree with what you and iamjacobm say. The way it is there are considerable reasons to do it and not to do it but I feel that with either notion, Omaha can get it done.
Some will say that you need density to justify streetcars. I tend to disagree with that because streetcars stimulate so much development just because they are. You could run a streetcar up and down 24th street for example, and no matter if you did it now or in ten years, the outcome would be the same. Without a streetcar, there's no reason to build dense so the area will be essentially the same in ten years, but once the streetcar line is built, development will boom and the area will be unbelievably more dense. So to me, it's just a matter of now or later. Might as well do it sooner rather than later.
Now, people concerned with money won't agree with me on that, so in order to please all crowds, we should build the cheapest (likely the shortest) route of any master plan first. Because a downtown circulator would be the shortest, it would probably be the cheapest. Once the cheap route is built, it will immediately stimulate development, people will see that as positive and then people will drop the "uselessness" attitude toward streetcars. Then after that, more streetcar routes will be built, making more of Omaha dense and that will command modes like light rail that will travel larger distances faster than streetcars. And just like that, Omaha is a dense, beautiful, sustainable city.
If you ask me, it all STARTS with one streetcar route. This is what I want it to be :http://g.co/maps/2hh3f and that could start as soon as the Double Tree over 16th street is demolished. That's what Omaha should push for in the near-term.
This is what the last good study said the route should be, but I disagree that it should turn east on Farnam. It should run farther up 16th street because the new downtown transit center will be under I-480, and to promote better transportation in the area, the streetcar route should definitely serve the new transit center.
Last edited by Busguy2010; 01-07-2012 at 05:15 PM..
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