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I just love this thread. I appreciate the OP's humor in sharing his culture clash experience. People who are all offended by it aren't taking his culture into consideration. I'm sure this was very unusual and uncomfortable for him. I think it's sweet that he tried to play it cool and be helpful. Anyone reading more into it isn't being very open minded to what people from other cultures go through when they immigrate to the US. I don't think it's strange at all the he thought he was special. I'm sure in his homeland only people who are special get to see what the bf mom showed him. It's more strange that Americans don't understand how this all translates to people from other cultures.
I just love this thread. I appreciate the OP's humor in sharing his culture clash experience. People who are all offended by it aren't taking his culture into consideration. I'm sure this was very unusual and uncomfortable for him. I think it's sweet that he tried to play it cool and be helpful. Anyone reading more into it isn't being very open minded to what people from other cultures go through when they immigrate to the US. I don't think it's strange at all the he thought he was special. I'm sure in his homeland only people who are special get to see what the bf mom showed him. It's more strange that Americans don't understand how this all translates to people from other cultures.
I find this kind of humorous, because you hear all the time people ranting about how Americans are so un-accepting of BFing in public, and how dare anyone suggest a BFing Mom use a cover, etc. and how BFing in public is so much more accepted in other cultures. How in other parts of the world, women BF openly everywhere and don't even attempt to cover up. Well here you go. Here is a man who comes from a culture that is much LESS accepting of BFing in public than America. So maybe we aren't so uptight afterall?
JJ, I'm disagreeing with you 100% on this topic. Sorry, but I never owned a nursing top.
Fair enough. But you did mention a picture of you with your baby in which nobody knew you were breastfeeding. Why did you bother covering up and being secretive about it? Other people here have pointed out that women in public are usually discreet about breastfeeding, and exposed nipples or lots of skin is rare. My point is ... why do we do that? It's because we don't want other people to see, or we don't want other people to be uncomfortable. It's modesty in some degree, right? I'm pointing out that the people who don't like to see women breastfeed are on the same modesty continuum, just not in the same place.
And by the way, I never said that I think breastfeeding is gross or inappropriate or should be banned, which brings me to my next point. You said you disagreed with me 100%. Here are all my posts on this thread where I had something to say about the subject matter:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia
Come on now. The sexualization of breasts is not some new, American thing. Poets have been talking about them for centuries. Things to do to them are in the Kama Sutra. That's like saying the vagina is only for conceiving and birthing babies. I don't think there are very many women anywhere who, during lovemaking, tell their men, "Hands OFF. Those are for the baby."
I'm with Jturr. Just because something is natural and functional doesn't mean everybody wants to see it. I don't want to see you squat down and pee, for instance, although that is a perfectly normal and natural thing to do. Farting is normal but most of us excuse ourselves to another room, at least. Same with blowing our noses, picking our teeth, cleaning our ears, etc. Some discretion is warranted, I feel, depending on where a mother is and who's around her. I don't advocate hot cars or dirty bathrooms, but a nursing top is usually just fine.
What do you disagree with here? Breasts ARE only for the baby and serve no other function? No discretion is warranted (and please note what I bolded for emphasis)? Please also note that I am not sending nursing moms into the bathroom to feed; that's gross.
Here are my other statements:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia
I understand that you feel breastfeeding is a unique body function, but surely you realize that it's only your feelings that make it so. In China, apparently little kids poop on the sidewalk quite a bit. They have pants split open for just that purpose, so clearly that's considered normal and natural over there. A kid's got to poop, after all, and what are you going to do? Make him poop into a diaper and then walk around with poop in his pants? Dirty, icky, gross, disgusting, ew! Or so the feelings are over there.
Like I said, most nursing tops are fine in my opinion. And breastfeeding in general doesn't bug me. I do object to the rationale that "This is natural and therefore okay," as well as, "There is nothing sexual about breasts and OMG you perverts." The first is illogical and the second is nonsensical.
Breastfeeding is a carnal act, and many people think it should be done privately. Like I said, I don't particularly care, but I understand that other people are squeamish about it. Bodily functions don't bother me much (except vomit and spitting), but I know that many others are irritated or uncomfortable by such things. I stand up for their tender sensibilities within reason. What's reasonable to you and me happens to differ, that's all. But probably not as much as you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia
I understand that people have different opinions on the subject.
I'm not sure if you are talking here to me or in general, but I've said twice that nursing tops are usually discreet. Also, you seem to acknowledge that discretion (not showing much) is important. If breastfeeding is so natural and inoffensive, then why not strip to the waist? Why bother covering up at all?
I don't think you can know whether most people knew you were breastfeeding. I believe that most people may not have acknowledged it, but you don't know if they were simply ignoring you.
You mentioned that women can walk around topless in New York. A lot of women probably don't, though, even though they can--just like most women tend to cover up while breastfeeding even though they don't have to. That's fine, but those same women can't cry "prude" and "pervert," either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Annie
If you (generic you) are uncomfortable with it, then the discomfort is yours - own it and deal with it.
When we insist that the individual's right to flout society's mores is more important than society's right to not watch that person pick his nose, scratch her crotch, belch at the table, or sit half-naked in a restaurant--we are going to have a lot of dissenting opinions.
This morning, I posted in the chat thread about parents dropping their kids off at school and causing all kinds of traffic and commotion with their "me first" attitudes and jockeying to get the best spot. Several people commiserated with me, and a couple added their own stories. It's the same thing: individual vs. society. The "troublemaking" drivers aren't breaking the law, just inconveniencing most of the rest of the group. Is it up to us to get over it? Or should those drivers try harder to fit in with the group and not inconvenience others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Annie
And more to the point, it is not illegal in NY state for a woman to be topless in any location - yes, even walking down 5th Ave in Manhattan. Is it illegal for men to be topless anywhere? Oh my, such excitement (NOT) to see men's nipples. And that's why the law in NY against women being topless was repealed. It's discriminatory. Women can control their excitement; men need to learn to do so.
I think there is nothing more precious or special than the look on a baby's face (and the mother's) when being breastfed. The love and bonding that takes place is unequaled in any setting. We need to encourage more women to breastfeed. It's the most lifegiving, nurturing act there is. Natural is not the argument. Bottles were developed for mothers who weren't able to breastfeed not as a substitute for the best nutrition.
I posit that actually giving birth is more lifegiving than breastfeeding, but birthing moms usually do so in private rooms, in their own homes, or behind drapes in the hospital. As someone else mentioned, men stand at urinals and pee, but they keep their eyes straight ahead, and they don't drop trou. I don't see what's wrong with being on the side of discretion.
You are attaching affectionate feelings to breastfeeding. I don't think that it's always a sexual sight for men. I think that some people just do not see the act as being as lovely and sweet as you do. I'm indifferent, myself, so I see it more dispassionately than others might.
True. All I could think when reading his post was "oh man - he's got himself some free ta-ta video, live and up close!"
And I was thinking that, because I have read his other posts elsewhere on the forum and know he's a serious, over the top, adorable foreign little boobie-horn-dog. And I couldn't help but giggle at the idea of his reaction when he sees a woman not only breastfeeding a baby in public, but engaging him in conversation WHILE she's doing it.
I could just see him placing a book on his lap to cover his joy...
Big laugh. I got a huge laugh out of that. Too bad there are a few people here who take it SO seriously, and turn what was an anecdote with a question, into a political matter of righteous indignation.
Maybe. But she didn't seem bothered. I left her a $50 panera gift card while leaving. Her mother came to the place a while later and she and I spoke a bit. I had a give a status report about my job, my place of birth and when I immigrated. The usual questions I get asked anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
You gave the nursing mother the gift card? Why? Not that I don't like generosity, but I'm a little confused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbd78
Maybe he wanted to ensure that she comes back to Panera again and again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva
That was my take - LOL.
I think the culture class caused him to misread her. She's whipping out her breast in front of him, not something that strangers do in his culture. And then she's telling him that she feels safe with him because she recgonizes him. All of this could easily have been misinterpretted as her being interested in pursuing a relationship with him. You can't blame him for not understanding. He comes from a culture of arranged marriages. He is very aware that things work differently here, but not exactly sure how things work exactly.
Either that or he was paying her for the striptease show!
JJ, I apologize - I wasn't clear - I disagreed with one thing 100% - not with everything you posted. Actually, as you know, you and I agree on many issues. And yes, I am passionate about breastfeeding. When I had my first child, it was a small minority who "dared" to not use the rubber nipple filled with a foreign substance and who believed in nature's food. I am far less militant than I was - and had to be - back when my sons were babies, but I haven't lost my belief. I wasn't necessarily discreet, it was just warmer for me to keep my clothing covering as much of me and my child as I could plus it was easier. When I nursed on the beach in my bathing suit, discretion happened because my son had on a hat. It just happened. Did I shove my nursing in someone else's face? Again, no. My rights end where yours begin BUT
This is a baby we are discussing and babies' rights DO extend beyond those of a normal adult. It is, of necessity, such that to protect children/infants, we must grant them and their needs greater leeway. A child who needs to nurse should be granted the same protection as an infant crying for a bottle. One wouldn't deny a bottle to a crying baby (and that isn't even natural), how dare anyone decide a time or place isn't right to offer a breast. And yes, it is the same thing. It's the natural form of nourishment (and comfort) to the baby.
Do we step aside for small child needing to use the bathroom regardless how long the line is? It's automatic to grant small children, and infants, rights that adults wouldn't dream of asking for (at least in polite society).
So, yes, I stand by statement that if you are uncomfortable seeing a baby receive nourishment, don't look. Go elsewhere. The baby's rights come before adults' rights.
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Maybe. But she didn't seem bothered. I left her a $50 panera gift card while leaving.
