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I saw this book mentioned elsewhere. I just really see it as using stereotyping as a way to sell a book and a way to play into the self loathing that many Americans have that will make them run out and buy such a book.
I see Americans as having a diverse range of parenting styles..so that would be my first problem with such a book, saying all Americans do X and all French do Y.
I loved the "SUPERIOR" choice of words. It was the choice when Tiger Mom spoke, now the dudesse with the French. These media people know their craft.
Cause controversy, make blood boil, bring issues of superiority/inferiority to the table and suggest that America might just not have the monopoly on the former on everything.
You will get Americans' attention.
Mission accomplished.
Yes, and all you have to do is look around and see that there are ALL kinds of American parents and children.
Yes, the writer's child sounded like a spoiled brat but that hardly means all American kids are spoiled and out-of-control. You can go to restaurants here in the USA and see kids who are well-behaved and also kids who are bratty and seeking attention.
What's this new zing thing with foreign parents - french parents, tiger mommas blah blah... is American parenting going through an insecurity phase?
American parents are at the tipping point IMO, the american system is too stressful and competitive...so yes we are looking for other methods.
For example, we are losing our "play based" Kindergartens...in lieu of memorization, reading @ 5 and test taking. If you look at Finland, they rank in the top 5 in all categories in High School and yet they believe in "play based" Kindergartens and not learning to read until 3rd grade.
American parents are at the tipping point IMO, the american system is too stressful and competitive...so yes we are looking for other methods.
For example, we are losing our "play based" Kindergartens...in lieu of memorization, reading @ 5 and test taking. If you look at Finland, they rank in the top 5 in all categories in High School and yet they believe in "play based" Kindergartens and not learning to read until 3rd grade.
We are being led down the wrong path.
Finland has five million people, less than the population of New York City, and they pay higher taxes. Their educational model is interesting, especially their education programs for adults, but their situation is completely different from ours. The U.S. population is approximately 60 times as large as Finland's, with a higher percentage of children (their birth rate is lower than ours, so they have disproportionately more adults), and more taxes to fund education. We can't really get on their "path"--we have to find our own path.
Do you agree there are TRENDS in any society? Just certain ways of doing things that are favored by a significant enough portion of the population to become visible and to have an impact?
"ALL" people do "NOTHING" EVERYWHERE!
There is no place under the sun where ALL people do one particular thing.
Does that mean no one should ever notice and comment on trends?
Time to come up with a better "easy button" argument.
The "everybody's different" is getting so old and it is sooooo BAD that it should be practically outlawed.
1)I think the US is more diverse than France
2)From what I have been reading elsewhere, French children aren't as well behaved as the author of the book would like us to believe
3)Noticing trends is one thing...using stereotypes is a lazy way to sell a book.
Finland has five million people, less than the population of New York City, and they pay higher taxes. Their educational model is interesting, especially their education programs for adults, but their situation is completely different from ours. The U.S. population is approximately 60 times as large as Finland's, with a higher percentage of children (their birth rate is lower than ours, so they have disproportionately more adults), and more taxes to fund education. We can't really get on their "path"--we have to find our own path.
I completely agree...that is always the problem I have when the US is compared to another country. I agree...we have to find our own path.
Not that I don't believe there might be some worthwhile things we could learn from the educational systems in other countries....but improving things in the US won't be a matter of switching over tho the Finnish way, and expecting things to improve overnight.
1)I think the US is more diverse than France
2)From what I have been reading elsewhere, French children aren't as well behaved as the author of the book would like us to believe
3)Noticing trends is one thing...using stereotypes is a lazy way to sell a book.
And what is your evidence that she is merely using "stereotypes" instead of "noticing trends"?
Way too many people scream "stereotype" in a "bloody murder" fashion. They point to "individual differences" as soon as they hear about a trend that they do not want to admit to, simply because it offends their personal identity in one way or another. So they deny it in the name of "individual differences".
Why don't you do a little "participant observation" study yourself?
Pick a decent number of restaurants to go to in areas that the French consider middle-class and where children are welcome (no, I can't sponsor your research trip). Then do the same in the US.
Sit and record children's behavior and their interaction with the parents as objectively as you are capable of. Take notes, describe behavior. Then compare and contrast. See what you find.
There is a reason why American kids have developed a reputation for being unruly, noisy, self-absorbed, high-maintenance, requiring lots of parental attention.
This reputation was not born out of sheer, irrational anti-American sentiment and nothing else; and it doesn't deny the reality that some American children are absolute angels. There are many perfectly-behaved American children - but this doesn't change the reality that American children, ON AVERAGE, tend to be more unruly than children in other parts of the world. You can view this as a "good" thing or a "bad" thing, this is your call; but the actual behavior is there.
That's because children in other parts of the world tend to be raised in stricter ways, with shorter "leashes", and because parents there do not make themselves available to children at all times. Many have dense family and social lives and by "family" they do not mean "children exclusively". That can also mean the relationship with the spouse, in and of itself, and relationships with extended family.
So children learn to adapt (again, you are free to judge this as a "good thing" or a "bad thing").
They learn that when parents talk to other adults or with each other, this is a code for "I don't have time for you now, neither am I obliged to include you in my adult conversation".
They learn that when you play, you play FOR yourself, BY yourself, or with other children; not FOR the parent or WITH the parent.
They learn you do not need to go back to the parent every 20 seconds and show them what you just did, how you did it, why you did it, and what else you need next in order to continue your play.
They learn that when other adults pay a visit, they didn't come there for YOU - the child. You are NOT the center of attention. The adults there will NOT talk about YOU and their eyes will NOT be on YOU. They came for the parents who expect to have uninterrupted adult conversation, in complicated language, that they will NOT take the time to explain to you right then and there. You will also supervise yourself and find something to do quietly, after you will have been given due attention from adults - which usually doesn't last long and happens in the beginning of the interaction.
They learn "prissy" behavior in restaurants. As in "don't touch with hands, use fork and knife, don't put it all over yourself, don't impulsively reach out for the object at the opposite end of the table only to knock down everything in your way", etc.
Yes, children raised like these are more "repressed", more constrained, more disciplined - simply because they are given less freedom of expression (which Americans love!) and more opportunity to watch, look up and learn (which Americans don't think is all that vital).
They learn that deep down, at the core, they are NOT the adults' equal. In such countries, including France, the parent-child relationship is not a democratic one. The more to the East you move, the less democratic it will be. It is a loving one, it is a mentor-disciple relationship, it is paternalistic relationship (go figure), but it is NOT democratic.
You can go ahead and argue "for" or "against" the merit of the American way; but you can't blindly insist that unruliness or lack thereof is perfectly equally distributed in the young population all over the word.
Because it is not.
I do admit though that facts can be a terribly annoying thing poking holes in our perfectly rosy personal bubble.
And what is your evidence that she is merely using "stereotypes" instead of "noticing trends"?
Way too many people scream "stereotype" in a "bloody murder" fashion. They point to "individual differences" as soon as they hear about a trend that they do not want to admit to, simply because it offends their personal identity in one way or another. So they deny it in the name of "individual differences".
Why don't you do a little "participant observation" study yourself?
Pick a decent number of restaurants to go to in areas that the French consider middle-class and where children are welcome (no, I can't sponsor your research trip). Then do the same in the US.
Sit and record children's behavior and their interaction with the parents as objectively as you are capable of. Take notes, describe behavior. Then compare and contrast. See what you find.
There is a reason why American kids have developed a reputation for being unruly, noisy, self-absorbed, high-maintenance, requiring lots of parental attention.
This reputation was not born out of sheer, irrational anti-American sentiment and nothing else; and it doesn't deny the reality that some American children are absolute angels. There are many perfectly-behaved American children - but this doesn't change the reality that American children, ON AVERAGE, tend to be more unruly than children in other parts of the world. You can view this as a "good" thing or a "bad" thing, this is your call; but the actual behavior is there.
That's because children in other parts of the world tend to be raised in stricter ways, with shorter "leashes", and because parents there do not make themselves available to children at all times. Many have dense family and social lives and by "family" they do not mean "children exclusively". That can also mean the relationship with the spouse, in and of itself, and relationships with extended family.
So children learn to adapt (again, you are free to judge this as a "good thing" or a "bad thing").
They learn that when parents talk to other adults or with each other, this is a code for "I don't have time for you now, neither am I obliged to include you in my adult conversation".
They learn that when you play, you play FOR yourself, BY yourself, or with other children; not FOR the parent or WITH the parent.
They learn you do not need to go back to the parent every 20 seconds and show them what you just did, how you did it, why you did it, and what else you need next in order to continue your play.
They learn that when other adults pay a visit, they didn't come there for YOU - the child. You are NOT the center of attention. The adults there will NOT talk about YOU and their eyes will NOT be on YOU. They came for the parents who expect to have uninterrupted adult conversation, in complicated language, that they will NOT take the time to explain to you right then and there. You will also supervise yourself and find something to do quietly, after you will have been given due attention from adults - which usually doesn't last long and happens in the beginning of the interaction.
They learn "prissy" behavior in restaurants. As in "don't touch with hands, use fork and knife, don't put it all over yourself, don't impulsively reach out for the object at the opposite end of the table only to knock down everything in your way", etc.
Yes, children raised like these are more "repressed", more constrained, more disciplined - simply because they are given less freedom of expression (which Americans love!) and more opportunity to watch, look up and learn (which Americans don't think is all that vital).
They learn that deep down, at the core, they are NOT the adults' equal. In such countries, including France, the parent-child relationship is not a democratic one. The more to the East you move, the less democratic it will be. It is a loving one, it is a mentor-disciple relationship, it is paternalistic relationship (go figure), but it is NOT democratic.
You can go ahead and argue "for" or "against" the merit of the American way; but you can't blindly insist that unruliness or lack thereof is perfectly equally distributed in the young population all over the word.
Because it is not.
I do admit though that facts can be a terribly annoying thing poking holes in our perfectly rosy personal bubble.
You didn't quote any sources, so I am going to assume these are your opinions on the subject? (and of course your friends, and everyone you know )
Finland has five million people, less than the population of New York City, and they pay higher taxes. Their educational model is interesting, especially their education programs for adults, but their situation is completely different from ours. The U.S. population is approximately 60 times as large as Finland's, with a higher percentage of children (their birth rate is lower than ours, so they have disproportionately more adults), and more taxes to fund education. We can't really get on their "path"--we have to find our own path.
So how does being a fluent reader at 5 help America's diversity?
Why can't this diverse population be allowed to have a childhood instead of having their brains tortured into reading at 5 - when most children are simply not ready for reading at this age? (Yes, I know the genius children of people on this forum were ready at 3).
How are the Finish taxes relevant when they spend LESS on education than Americans, with better long-term results - and not more?
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