Should you warn your kid about bullies?

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

I agree with the cause portion of this post in its entirety.

Wasn't that long ago that kids ran around together without adults all the time. The peer group itself taught children that when they are mean or bully they are left out next time everyone is going out. Now it isnt until children are much older that they are unsupervised socially.

Unfortunately that means they are much smarter but less emotionally mature. I think that is why we see such vicious emotional and relational bullying in high school now. It is not really a case of just "chin up" because it is a never ending wave of humiliation for some kids. Ryan Halligan springs to mind.

Suicide of Ryan Halligan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He had actually learned to defend himself physically and the bullies switched tactics almost immediately. Just something to think about.

I see things like what happened to Ryan Halligan and I wonder how much effort his parents put into addressing socialization, self-confidence and coping skills when he was younger. His father as quoted in the wiki article refers to him as a "sensitive, caring child" that had developmental delays and health issues. Ryan didn't really experience bullying until he was around 10 and then learned to defend himself as a coping mechanism later on around the age of 11. Given the fathers quote, I can only infer that Ryan led a rather sheltered life when he was younger and I think that is a big part of the problem in general.

As you said we've removed the early socialization among kids. It is very easy for kids to exist solely in a supervised and adult mediated world until they are practically teenagers at which point they are thrust into a more open social world. Perhaps this is why the kids turn so vicious online. They have some anonymity if they want it, but the online world also tends to be free of adult oversight.

All you need to do is go down to the local playground and watch. The majority of parents are in constant hover mode. They make sure their kid gets their turn on the slide, they settle any disagreements immediately and they often talk over the childrens heads resolving issues between the kids, between the parents before meting out their justice. Then on top of that, the schools are being drawn into things that occur far beyond their own walls, being asked to mediate issues and even punishing students for things that happen away from school.

Now obviously dealing with it at the tween and teen level is very different, but it's the basic lessons that I think are missing and are important for people to reinforce to their younger kids.

When I was in school, the schools attitude tended to be to turn a blind eye to what went on outside of school. That was the purview of the parents and in some cases, the teachers even seemed to passively acknowledge the necessity of John and Tim to head to the park and slug it out after school. Now, the schools either encourage or are being forced to become involved in every aspect.

Last year there was a boy in my sons class that he didn't get along with. The kid was going through some problems at home and was rather obnoxious and took it out on other kids. This kid was a regular with the principal and counselor. My son and him ended up on the same baseball team. They got along OK in general, but they pushed each others buttons. One day before a game, my son and this boy along with a few other kids were playing on the playground before a game and I was chatting with another parent. Some words were exchanged, then pushing and then the other kid hit my son. My son immediately hit him back and the two of them started rolling around on the ground.

I ran over and broke up the fight and the kids dad was also there and came over. We dusted the boys off and made them say in front of us and each other what happened. They apologized to each other and shook hands. The other dad and I explained to them that there were better ways to resolve their problems than hitting each other. They didn't have to be "friends" or even like each other, but they had to treat each other with respect. The other dad then took his son home and we stayed at the game as my son wanted to play.

As I was watching the game, a couple of the other parents were telling me that I should call the school and let them know what happened. I asked them why would I do that, it didn't happen at school and we solved the problem. The other parents were telling me that the school should know so that they could "handle" the issue. I just told them that if it was a problem in school, that we would address it then.

One of the other parents then told me that I should do it, because the other kid is picking on other kids all the time including her son and she has complained and told her son to tell the teacher anytime the other kid bothers him, but it hasn't really stopped. She felt that if more parents complained the school may take more decisive action. I told her, maybe the problem was that her son needed to stick up for himself as mine had done. She seemed completely aghast at the suggestion that her son might have to actually confront his "bully" on his own terms. She said the old tried and true "my son is a 'sensitive' boy" and its the teachers job to make sure he isn't bothered in class.

My son hasn't had an issue with the boy since their fight. They aren't friends, but they can get along when they need to. The other kid that was getting picked on, still has issues with the "bully" even though his parents specifically requested that they be put in separate classes this year. Is it the "bully", or is it the way people are handling their issues with the bully? FWIW, the kids were in Kindergarten last year and 1st grade this year.

[dr74]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

Thanks, dr74. I agree, teaching your child to be assertive and stand up for his rights early on is a great way to prepare him without bringing it up immediately before he starts school! It's a good idea. I'd like to ask, though, about your scenario in which another kid was bullying yours physically. You didn't mention talking with the teacher, but surely you did? I wouldn't imagine talking to the parent of a child like that WOULD do much good, but it is worth a shot if you can't resolve it with a teacher.

Also, I think your story can serve as a reminder for us all to encourage our kids (though it may not work as well as we'd like) to communicate with us about the events of their day. Preventing a one-time thing isn't nearly as important as preventing an everyday routine of being bullied; this is what is likely to actually damage that assertiveness you've been teaching. Perhaps some kids will still choose not to say anything about another kid bullying them, but it's something they should know, that they can and should tell us if someone's being cruel to them.

Oh yeah, what do you mean "Strange to find you here"? I'm ALWAYS on this board!

Hey Vic, yes I did speak to his teacherand she stated to me that she had seen this behavior as well and had numerous things to curb the behavior..i.e. looking for antecedents to the behavior as well as making sure the two of them were separated in line. She also stated that this childs parents were going through divorce and this was the reason ( He was acting out) Psychologically I understood that this was the way this child chose to take control of his life since he had very little control over his parents divorce this way of "acting" out was highly inappropriat..I feel that an early intervention should have been done, "Play therapy" and counseling..not using other children as a punching bag...

I spoke to the mother in the event that the teacher had not mentioned itto her due to her situation..I am a divorced parent and I am always a parent first...I would want to know if there are red flags with my child so I can get him help...

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Type of bullying tends to be age dependent. Therefore most bullying in younger grades is physical and switches to more verbal and psychological when they get older. Interestingly there is little difference in effect on the child being bullied whether it is physical or verbal.

And yes, young children are more likely to physically bully than to emotionally bully, even if that is not your personal experience. That is not from my personal experience but the state mandated training and review of research I have had to complete on my school's behalf.

FYI, if something happens "ONCE" it is not "bullying".

Actually Vic was replying to my post.
And while you are correct that bullying behavior varies and is age dependent, children as young as 24 months have appropriate language to state discontent or frustration unless there is a cognitive delay, behavioral issue or a speech delay..most toddlers are responsive to "using their words" I know this because I have taught children in this age range for years...
My experience with this on a personal level as well as teaching in state/county programs, having mandated trainings as well as conducting trainings myself state that bullying behaviors hould not be tolerated at all.
Early education states not only teaching children so they are prepared for a formal education however teaching socially acceptable behavior as well.

Working in collaboration with staff,, specialists and parents in teaching children how to be successful and courteous to peers is essential to their future success.
You are right ...one time of kicking another child does not qualify a child a bully however repetitive behavior of the sort does.

Originally Posted by lkb0714

And the problem with the above statement is that is primarily a myth and stops people from dealing with the far more common issue of bullying.

I have been a teacher for pushing 10 years now. We have never had a case of the type of bullying, where one "bully" is physically hurting another child aka "the victim" on a regular basis.
Well as a former teacher for many years I can tell you this does occur alot while it may not occur where you teach or have taught does not mean that this behavior is not common..It happened to my son and has happened to other children.

What we have had is numerous cases of children being emotionally, or verbally abused by groups of other students. Choosing to paint a "bully" as the definition above belittles what these other students have been through.

Additionally, if you look at the cases of suicide by children suffering from bullying, it is almost never of the physical variety.

Finally, I wish all parents would realize that even their children are more than capable of participating in bullying behavior. I know this first hand, my daughter was bullied at one point in grade school, and also bullied another child during the same time period. I cannot tell you how many times I have had to describe to parents why the behavior of their children is bullying and have them tell me "but they never hit anyone" or "but it was only a few times" because they have an image in their head of a "bully" like the one you describe above and cannot reconcile it with their child.

Correct.

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

My philosophy on bullying is tied to the belief that we can never "legislate" against bullying. Meaning, there will always be bullying and bullies, just look at all of recorded human history for proof. So, with that in mind, the best way is to "bully proof" yourself, which basically comes down to self-confidence that is built on the foundation of empathy and being empowered to defend yourself.

Now, how to teach that is the tricky part and I agree with the posts of dr74(?) in that it generally revolves around discovering teaching moments and using them to help your child better frame their response, or to analyze their actions and what they could have done better. I find a lot of times, it is often more productive to sit back and watch how your child reacts to situations on their own.

If one of my kids is on the playground and gets into an argument with another kid, I don't run right in and "save" them, I sit back and see what they do. I find that many times, they are perfectly capable of working the issue out on their own by the time they are around 3. At younger ages, I would "coach" them though the situation, hopefully with the other parent doing the same. This helps start empowering them to deal with the situations on their own.
This is the key part..It is never to early to teach your child how to be assertive however be careful not to raise a bully yourself.
It is a fine line but it can be done, my parents did it with me and my sister and I do it with our children.

The only time I really intervene directly is when my kid is the one that is obviously being the bully. At that moment I am reminding them of expected behavior and what is acceptable. One time my son was excluding another boy from a game on the playground, because the kid was "too slow". I reminded him that everyone is good at different things and that there are things that boy is probably better at than the other kids. Just being slow, doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to play and how would my son feel if he was the slowest? We're starting to build empathy, which is what keeps us from bullying others.
Exactly...My son is now 14. He played volleyball from 6th grade to 8th grade in the same school. The team kept losing every game because there were some kids that were new and were not athletically inclined but at our school ( which is catholic and teaches team building, good sportsmanship and so forth) the push was notto win but rather play a good game...
My son is a semi pro skater, sponsored by a local skate shop since he was 9 he could not get it..
Oh man he would get ugly after the game and state things like " They don't care, they do not want to win, it's embarrassing"
I had to explain that this was not a one man team like he was useto and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose and everyone was trying heir best and he could not ask for more. I also reiterated that this seemed to be a personal problem (his) and if he was going to be ugly than maybe he did not need to be part of the team...
I also reminded him of the several times he did NOT win his division in skate tourneys and how down he had been even knowing that he had given it his all..."You can't win them all son, sometimes someoe else has to win, all you cn do is your best." sheesh!

So, as the lessons build on each other in these little "teaching moments" we are forging self-confidence which results in your child being "bully proof". They will have empathy to deal with both their bullies and help to remind them not to engage in bullying themselves. At the same time, they are being empowered to be able to defend themselves (both physically and verbally) and resolve situations on their own without adults needing to intervene. The end result is a self-confident person who feels neither the need to bully nor is susceptible to bullying.

I think where "modern" parenting is letting down our kids in the realm of bullying is the "tattle" culture that we are insisting upon. If John hits you, you need to tell the teacher. If John looks at you funny, you need to tell the teacher. If John says you smell, you need to tell the teacher. You can replace "teacher" with any other adult present. We aren't letting our kids resolve conflicts on their own. Most play is highly regulated and adults are
I am going to play devils advocate for one minute..
In a perfect world, where parents are advocates for their children this would not be an issue, because the PARENT ( THE ACTUAL PRIMARY TEACHER) WOULD tell their children to let it roll off or comeback with something witty to let know the bully know he met his match...
However WE are not all advocates and this comes from teachers whom cannot be everywhere at one time.
There are many children whom come from impoverished homes, neglectful parents, basically they cannot win for losing.
So yes 'tattling" is okay because? Often times there are children that slip through the cracks, get heckled, teased beyond it being okay and normal whatever that is...and they have noone to adovcate for them!
THEY ARE CHILDREN, NOT ADULTS! Until they reach 18 years of age, they do not all come issued with great parents or a stable life it is up to an ADULT to advocate for them.
To have an adult speak to these 'bullies" and if does not stop? Speak to the parents...FIND OUT THE REASON for the behavior...
Normal tattling? Gets old but repeat offender bullying and physical violence should never be tolerated...

omnipresent. The schools aren't helping either with "zero tolerance" policies and constantly drumming it into kids heads that they shouldn't fight back, even to defend themselves, to which I say, BS. I've shaken my head at more than one parent who swoops in to resolve their childs conflicts on a regular basis, never letting them figure it out for themselves. These parents are the ones most often complaining about "pervasive bullying" and that their child is just "sensitive".

These laws have been put into effect due to the rise in suicides..plain and simple..
I do not know about you but cyber bullying is vicious..period
I am i my late 30's and the extent of bullying happened at school or after school, it did not extend to:
Blogs on Facebook about how gross, or what a ***** someone is, video taping a beat down in the girls gym and then putting it on youtube and seeing how many hits it gets!
mass texting fake pics of another peer! What would you have schools do?
Point in fact? I had a client come to me with this very problem.
Her daughter whom is very pretty got jumped in the girls locker room, these "bullies" taped it on their phone and uploaded thevid on youtube the very reason these brats got caught and caught a case.

Aside from this? My client stated to her daughter if they came after her to fight back and she would not get in trouble? However these brats ( 5) of them decided to come to the worst place, the safe house where I was the transitional housing coordinator?
stating "C'mon you dirty *****, come and get whats coming to you?"
Now if you can tell me a good way to curb this behavior as a 15 year old girl without intervention from adults? Her mother could not be with her 24 hours.
So I contacted the school and they were able to arrest these girls because they found the vid on youtube and had my testimony that they came harassing her at home as well sent out a mass text message of a faux message they concocted because one of these bullies hacked hr cell phone. What saved this girl was that cyber texting law and the zero violence tolerance law..
It is obvious to me that you have not been in school in a long time.

Bottom line?
In a perfect world
1. Every parent would teach their children how to behave
2. No child is perfect sometimes they will behave badly however no child is truly BAD it is adults that have let them down however it is never to late to be involved
Early intervention is key
Remember that the best way to teach your child is to lead by example.
Use whatever resources available even though it may show scenes of violence because this is an effective tool of the real world and how NOT to be.