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Much of what you're choosing to believe, will likely be DISproven, 10 years from now.
Or so was probably said 10 years ago
I'm not "buying into" every new study; I'm inferring from the enormous amount of research done on spanking that finds it harmful that such a conclusion being flawed should mean contradictory findings aren't so rare. I'm suspicious of the fact that there isn't much scientific evidence (and it would seem NO replicated studies) to suggest that spanking is of either neutral effect or beneficial.
Interestingly, none of you would allow the "You don't know what's necessary for my child" defense in a case of full-on child abuse. Why not? Surely, not all abuse physically disables or noticeably traumatizes a child. So what's to suggest that child abuse itself isn't "necessary for some kids"? Why not "MYOB" there, and concede that no one could possibly know what's better for said abused children than their abusive parents?
Haha, no apology needed! You know how much I love empirical evidence, and think it really does have value in guiding treatment and behavior, but I agree that sometimes in these debates, we all end up talking in general statements that either over-emphasize or under-emphasize the results and their implications, which never ends well (and probably doesn't reflect reality all that well, either).
Just what I've been trying to say. Thanks eastwesteastagain! There is NO single correct way to discipline a child. But on forums like this, if you say, "I spanked my child," you are automatically jumped all over, lectured, told how you're lazy, sadistic, or abusive, that you will raise an aggressive child who will only fear you and have a low IQ, etc. This is not the reality I know and many other people know.
A cousin of mine, whom I mentioned previously who's mother used to "thump" him in the head ALL the time, is now a doctor. He has three siblings, one is a administrator of a private school, one is a school board administrator, one is a computer technician. All are married, two are parents, good parents at that. Another cousin of mine had parents who whipped her with a belt for the slightest infraction, and had no problem publicly humiliating her. She clearly has some mental issues now that I believe stem from this. Both sets of cousins were corporally disciplined. What made the difference? The method used popping vs. hit with a belt? The reasons for it--getting your white tennis shoes dirty vs. being disrespectful, stealing, lying, etc? The relationship between the kids and parents--the four siblings were obviously loved, cared for, and protected by their mother, the other cousin's parents constantly nagged, criticized, ridiculed, and embarrassed her. Or the type of child--my cousin who got thumped didn't even care, didn't hurt or bother him much at all, while my other cousin may have been a more sensitive child who didn't need such harsh punishment. I really don't think my four cousins who were "thumped" or mildly physically disciplined could have turned out any better than if they had not been. I don't think being thumped is the best method, but it didn't cause them any harm other than a momentary sting.
The parents who choose not to spank, more power to you. But your decision may not be the right one for each and every family. I really don't think anyone should be judged for their decision unless their method of discipline is harming a child in a way that can be seen in THAT CHILD, not in a way some random study says might happen. I believe studies can guide behavior also, but I don't believe they should control behavior.
Honestly, I'd need to see the numbers, but point well taken about looking for specific information - what is infrequent? What is regularly? What percentage go on to develop antisocial behaviors? What else did the researchers control for when looking at the relationship between spanking and antisocial behaviors?, etc. ETA: May or may not connotes more of a 50-50 crapshoot, when with the actual numbers it might be 75% of the time under x, y, and z conditions; 95% of the time under a, b, and c conditions, YKWIM?
Research results are more than just an opinion (that's what theory papers are for ), but they do need to be reported on accurately and precisely. Studies are conducted with specific parameters, and it is very easy to over or understate results if one isn't careful. I'm not sure how careful the media is - IME, sometimes very careful but often less careful than I'd like. Headlines are right out.
Exactly! Yes...what is regularly?..every day? TID? If I'm going to change my viewpoint, you can bet it's going to be because someone has provided me more than a 50/50 spread. LOL
Another thing that I always keep in mind too?...the definition of theory.
a speculative idea or plan as to how something might be done
I'm not "buying into" every new study; I'm inferring from the enormous amount of research done on spanking that finds it harmful that such a conclusion being flawed should mean contradictory findings aren't so rare. I'm suspicious of the fact that there isn't much scientific evidence (and it would seem NO replicated studies) to suggest that spanking is of either neutral effect or beneficial.
Interestingly, none of you would allow the "You don't know what's necessary for my child" defense in a case of full-on child abuse. Why not? Surely, not all abuse physically disables or noticeably traumatizes a child. So what's to suggest that child abuse itself isn't "necessary for some kids"? Why not "MYOB" there, and concede that no one could possibly know what's better for said abused children than their abusive parents?
Talk about choosing what to believe...
Well, that's because full on child abuse is NEVER necessary, and not a part of this debate. We're talking about spanking, not whippings, bruises, cuts, broken bones, food deprivation, torture, humiliation, or any other method of brutalizing a child. Parents who abuse their children are obviously out of control. I really don't think child abuse is calculated and planned unless the parent is psychotic. A parent who is spanking their child has more than likely tried other methods, or feel the situation is severe enough to warrant a real message, and feel their child won't get the message in another way. If they are not doing it just to vent their anger, then it would never escalate to abuse. Parents who abuse their children need intervention, and no one should ever mind their own business in cases of abuse. However, if I swat my child's bottom in a grocery store, that is a MYOB moment.
Well, that's because full on child abuse is NEVER necessary, and not a part of this debate. We're talking about spanking, not whippings, bruises, cuts, broken bones, food deprivation, torture, humiliation, or any other method of brutalizing a child. Parents who abuse their children are obviously out of control. I really don't think child abuse is calculated and planned unless the parent is psychotic. A parent who is spanking their child has more than likely tried other methods, or feel the situation is severe enough to warrant a real message, and feel their child won't get the message in another way. If they are not doing it just to vent their anger, then it would never escalate to abuse. Parents who abuse their children need intervention, and no one should ever mind their own business in cases of abuse. However, if I swat my child's bottom in a grocery store, that is a MYOB moment.
Absolutely! Excellent post. I can't agree more. It's just too bad I have to spread those reps around before giving you more!
Specific claim, please? I thought violent crime has been more or less declining since the early 90s...
reported violent crime is down.
in other words if you are gang raped in NYC its a "personal incident".
pending law suit against NYPD on this issue of tweaking stats we got it here rampant.
Well, that's because full on child abuse is NEVER necessary, and not a part of this debate.
Again, how do you know? If spanking is "necessary for some" and only the parent can know what's best for their child, what distinguishes it from child abuse?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
Parents who abuse their children are obviously out of control. I really don't think child abuse is calculated and planned unless the parent is psychotic. A parent who is spanking their child has more than likely tried other methods, or feel the situation is severe enough to warrant a real message, and feel their child won't get the message in another way.
Again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
Parents who abuse their children need intervention, and no one should ever mind their own business in cases of abuse. However, if I swat my child's bottom in a grocery store, that is a MYOB moment.
Exactly! Yes...what is regularly?..every day? TID? If I'm going to change my viewpoint, you can bet it's going to be because someone has provided me more than a 50/50 spread. LOL
Another thing that I always keep in mind too?...the definition of theory.
a speculative idea or plan as to how something might be done
And there's that magic word! "Might" (aka "may")
The thing is that the researchers have that information, it is published in the full-length articles, but the full research paper is usually not what is being reported in the media or discussed here, and some primary sources are harder to find than others, IME.
Again, how do you know? If spanking is "necessary for some" and only the parent can know what's best for their child, what distinguishes it from child abuse?
Again...
And again...
Vic, you seem like an intelligent person, so I'm guessing you know the difference between child abuse and spanking, and you're just being sarcastic, especially when I've differentiated between the two a number of times now quite clearly.
But just in case you really don't know, again...an abusive parent either does not know or does not care what the best method is for their child, and will use the most extreme method possible to vent their own anger, pain, frustration, or ignorance.
And again...a spanking parent has weighed the options, knows their child intimately, cares about their child deeply, has tried other methods without success, and will use the least possible amount of pain to get the point across. Are there some that go overboard, spank out of anger, etc? Of course. Are there some that go overboard with nonspanking, and allow their kids to just run wild, be disrespectul and rude, get high at home and live in mom's basement until their 50? Of course. Extremes can go either way.
And again, there is a BIG difference between spanking and child abuse. I really think it is an insult to real victims of child abuse to compare what they have been through to getting spanked. I have read numerous stories of child abuse, and I'm quite sure every one of those children would have gladly taken a "spank" over what they had to go through. There is no comparing the two at all.
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), but they do need to be reported on accurately and precisely. Studies are conducted with specific parameters, and it is very easy to over or understate results if one isn't careful. I'm not sure how careful the media is - IME, sometimes very careful but often less careful than I'd like. Headlines are right out.
Yes...what is regularly?..every day? TID? If I'm going to change my viewpoint, you can bet it's going to be because someone has provided me more than a 50/50 spread. LOL 
