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Now, this brings up the last point. Many in the "don't defend yourself" camp will now start assembling armies of strawmen about "what if someone assaulted you in work" and making up other extreme examples of "what if a gang of 30 teenage boys comes to beat my 10 year old daughter up". First, step back off the ledge and deal in reality. Second, no one in the "defend yourself" camp is saying that everyone should be able to handle every situation that ever comes along. However, using the .01% to discredit tactics that are extremely effective 99.99% of the time is extremely illogical. There is nothing wrong with falling back on authority when the extreme happens. The issue, again, is falling back on authority over extremely petty things. People don't wake up one day and become the victims of bullying, it's a long process that starts with how you handle the first conflict and the first time you are teased.
Thing is, depending on the 'quality' of kids you're dealing with, things can and do escalate very quickly in some cases; many of the families of kids who committed suicide over bullying, for instance, had no real clue as to what was going on and it came as a total shock to them that it was so extreme. And it doesn't always have to be a long process that starts mildly. In cases similar to OPs, things can easily progress like this: boys grab at or make a derogatory comment to the girl passing by, first incident, the girl responds by pushing them off and saying something back; boys get aggravated by the response, snarl 'b*tch*, shove her hard against a locker, walk away.
Now, say the girl is actually physically accomplished enough and manages to respond swiftly by kicking one in the groin. The idyllic scenario, as you seem to propagate, is that they then get so scared, they go away and leave her alone. But let's say these boys are tougher than that. And angrier. So they walk away. And then, one day, they stake her out outside the school grounds somewhere, with no one around, with a few of their older friends or brothers, and gang-rape her in revenge.
Is that far-fetched? Maybe. But that's not to say it can't happen. And when it's your child's safety on the line, really, I say it's the smarter thing sometimes to simply escape the situation or hand it over to higher forces, than it is to try and combat it out, in a possible very unequal fight.
Something very similar happened to my husband when he was in high school
There were these guys who were picking on him and his friend. Started off with the usual pushing around, insults, etc., nothing too violent. But this one kid in particular kept being a pain and getting in their face, so my husband ended up fighting him, punched him and gave him a bloody nose and black eye.
A couple days later, the kid's older brother and cousin came by and told DH that he was dead. Gave him a beating, and told him there's more to come, that they'll be waiting after school. The cousin then flashed a pocket knife, and brass knuckles. DH showed up at home with a black eye, his mom freaked out and went to the principal, and the boys were suspended with a threat of expulsion and police report. It was very close to graduation, so they managed to stay out of each other's way. But there was real potential for DH to get seriously hurt. I happened to know these kids' family, and let me tell you, these were some real bad seeds. Broken home, abusive father that beat the crap out of the wife and kids. The guy with the brass knuckles was the youngest of four brothers, and got the brunt of abuse at home, so he was seriously messed up, really angry; I have no doubt he'd have no problem using the weapons.
This is just an example of how scary these things really can get. And parents don't always know. DH's mom had no clue he was dealing with any of this until she saw him, he didn't tell her because as a 16 year old guy, he didn't want her to make a fuss and be known as the kid whose mommy came to the school. Yet if she hasn't gone to the principal at that time, things could've ended very badly.
I think that is a perfectly legitimate response to the situation the OP described, except that I wouldn't have her yell "Rape" because that's not what was occurring. But I would tell her to hit and kick as hard as she could and that no matter what discipline they might level on her at school, I would be on her side.
The "rape" thing was based on getting attention rapidly, perhaps just "scream as loud as you can" would suffice.
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All of that is well and good, assuming the parent is strong-willed enough to follow through and that the girl is able and willing to fight, or at least land one good punch or kick. Bullying starts to become a much more dangerous situation when a child is incapable or unwilling to fight back or when a parent fears confrontation so much that they won't actually push the case with authorities. Social anxiety can keep someone from engaging in all sorts of situations and the thought of confronting an authority figure terrorizes some people.
Well this is the crux of the matter isn't it? People who are as you describe above are most likely going to find themselves the repeated victims of bullying. Rules, penalties, etc. aren't going to stop it from happening and if it's not school, then it's going to happen in other settings as well. This was part of my macro point about how to actually overcome bullying. The child and/or parent in the condition you are describing needs to seek help in overcoming their issues and learn to become more assertive and stick up for themselves. You did mention one important facet though and that is it seems kids who have issues with bullies tend to have parents who were also bullied and/or are afraid of conflict.
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Still, no one,and certainly not a child, should have to wake up wondering if they're going to have to have fight off an attack that day. I understand that the world is a tough place and that people have to learn to fight their own battles. But it is not unreasonable for a parent to bring all possible pressure to bare on a school administrator (media, lawyer, police) in an effort to create a safe learning environment for her child, if she fails to get an adequate response from the administration on her first request.
I prefer for my kids to wake up confident that they can handle what their little world will most likely throw at them that day. They also know that mom and dad are confident in handling whatever the world may throw at them that day, including laying the proverbial smack down on a school if needed to defend the rights and person of their child. Their confidence means they almost never need mine...
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Originally Posted by somebodynew
Do you have statistics or other information about the relative frequency of bullying instances that can make you assert that this is "extreme"? The issue is not whether the case is "extreme" but if the victim is at risk for real harm.
Do I have statistics on how many times a group of boys supposedly punches a girl? No. I do know that around 15-20% of bullying incidents are considered to be "physical", but this is defined as everything from taking or damaging belongings to pinching, spitting, pushing, tripping, slapping, punching and kicking. I think it's reasonable to say that the situation as described by the OP is not exactly a "common" act of bullying. I also agree that the risk of real harm needs to be factored in, but such a determination comes from having way more information than we do.
Well this is the crux of the matter isn't it? People who are as you describe above are most likely going to find themselves the repeated victims of bullying. Rules, penalties, etc. aren't going to stop it from happening and if it's not school, then it's going to happen in other settings as well. This was part of my macro point about how to actually overcome bullying. The child and/or parent in the condition you are describing needs to seek help in overcoming their issues and learn to become more assertive and stick up for themselves. You did mention one important facet though and that is it seems kids who have issues with bullies tend to have parents who were also bullied and/or are afraid of conflict.
I prefer for my kids to wake up confident that they can handle what their little world will most likely throw at them that day. They also know that mom and dad are confident in handling whatever the world may throw at them that day, including laying the proverbial smack down on a school if needed to defend the rights and person of their child. Their confidence means they almost never need mine...
Yes, it is the crux of the matter. The child and the adult need help in the matter. But in the time it takes a shy, unassertive parent to go to assertiveness training or somehow acquire the skills to stand up for themselves and their child, the child could be seriously injured, or at the very least, extremely miserable on a daily basis.
Yes, yes, yes, on the confidence. But some kids don't have confidence in themselves or their parents (with good reason) and they should not have to suffer because they are weak or lacking self-preservation skills.
Everyone who has posted on here that they were bullied til they had enough and fought back is missing the point. Some kids cannot fight back. I'm good friends with a family with a fairly high-functioning autistic son. He's bright, but has some communication issues, flaps sometimes and has an odd forced speech pattern. He was bullied in middle school, they reported it, the administration chalked it up to "joking around." At this point he'd been shoved and had things knocked out of his hands. That child is not capable of fighting back. He is uncoordinated (didn't learn to ride a bike til he was about 12 and went to a special summer camp) and has poor muscle tone, which is a characteristic of some autistic children. Plus, he didn't understand social cues and didn't understand when he was "annoying" kids with his repetitive speech. His parents pulled him out of school and are home-schooling him, at least for middle school, and I would have done the same thing. The alternative was to let him go to school and be a punching bag for stupid middle school brats.
Bullies pick on the vulnerable. If you were bullied and fought back, it stopped for you, but you can be sure they moved on to someone else. In an ideal world, everyone would be strong and capable and brave, but we don't live in an ideal world. But that does not mean that the weak and wimpy among us should be terrorized.
"Always intervene. Adults have a crucial role to play in the socialization of children. And consistency counts. Any time adults do not intervene they are essentially training others to solve problems through aggression." Hara E Marano
I like that you are quoting Marano, author of "Nation of Wimps". If you went beyond the basic quote, you would know that her intent is to foster and teach social skills so that children can resolve their own conflicts and not fall into the cycle of victimization.
A snippet from a very long article written by Hara in Psychology Today. This piece ends the dissertation on the "profile of the victim" and how they become one...
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In Olweus's studies, victims have close relationships with their parents and tend to come from overprotective families. As a result, they get no practice in handling conflict, one of the basic facts of social life, and no confidence in their ability to negotiate the world on their own. Overprotection prevents them from learning the skills necessary to avoid exploitation by others.
This ties into her earlier much more famous statements made in "A Nation of Wimps" where she attacks overprotective and overinvolved parenting as leaving children bereft of social and self coping skills. She has made the connection between what is seen as an increase in bullying and a culture of overprotective parenting.
Thing is, depending on the 'quality' of kids you're dealing with, things can and do escalate very quickly in some cases; many of the families of kids who committed suicide over bullying, for instance, had no real clue as to what was going on and it came as a total shock to them that it was so extreme. And it doesn't always have to be a long process that starts mildly. In cases similar to OPs, things can easily progress like this: boys grab at or make a derogatory comment to the girl passing by, first incident, the girl responds by pushing them off and saying something back; boys get aggravated by the response, snarl 'b*tch*, shove her hard against a locker, walk away.
Now, say the girl is actually physically accomplished enough and manages to respond swiftly by kicking one in the groin. The idyllic scenario, as you seem to propagate, is that they then get so scared, they go away and leave her alone. But let's say these boys are tougher than that. And angrier. So they walk away. And then, one day, they stake her out outside the school grounds somewhere, with no one around, with a few of their older friends or brothers, and gang-rape her in revenge.
Is that far-fetched? Maybe. But that's not to say it can't happen. And when it's your child's safety on the line, really, I say it's the smarter thing sometimes to simply escape the situation or hand it over to higher forces, than it is to try and combat it out, in a possible very unequal fight.
Something very similar happened to my husband when he was in high school
There were these guys who were picking on him and his friend. Started off with the usual pushing around, insults, etc., nothing too violent. But this one kid in particular kept being a pain and getting in their face, so my husband ended up fighting him, punched him and gave him a bloody nose and black eye.
A couple days later, the kid's older brother and cousin came by and told DH that he was dead. Gave him a beating, and told him there's more to come, that they'll be waiting after school. The cousin then flashed a pocket knife, and brass knuckles. DH showed up at home with a black eye, his mom freaked out and went to the principal, and the boys were suspended with a threat of expulsion and police report. It was very close to graduation, so they managed to stay out of each other's way. But there was real potential for DH to get seriously hurt. I happened to know these kids' family, and let me tell you, these were some real bad seeds. Broken home, abusive father that beat the crap out of the wife and kids. The guy with the brass knuckles was the youngest of four brothers, and got the brunt of abuse at home, so he was seriously messed up, really angry; I have no doubt he'd have no problem using the weapons.
This is just an example of how scary these things really can get. And parents don't always know. DH's mom had no clue he was dealing with any of this until she saw him, he didn't tell her because as a 16 year old guy, he didn't want her to make a fuss and be known as the kid whose mommy came to the school. Yet if she hasn't gone to the principal at that time, things could've ended very badly.
Just as I said, the counter to the statement that one must defend themselves in the initial encounter and be equipped to do so is to then run to the extreme and invent a scenario where defending oneself is "impossible". In every statement I have made and advice I gave on this topic, I immediately followed the "defense against physical attack" by reporting the incident to the appropriate authorities. The girl, after kicking the attacker should immediately report what happened to the prinicipal which then triggers the parents involvement to ensure the matter is resolved.
For the record, I think that the boys are more likely to continue to harass and go to the extreme of sexually assaulting the girl who cowers to their intimidation. I think they are less likely to go after the girl who had the wherewithal and courage to physically defend herself. Bullies prey on the weak and socially awkward...psychology 101 per the authors and researchers above.
The "rape" thing was based on getting attention rapidly, perhaps just "scream as loud as you can" would suffice.
Well this is the crux of the matter isn't it? People who are as you describe above are most likely going to find themselves the repeated victims of bullying. Rules, penalties, etc. aren't going to stop it from happening and if it's not school, then it's going to happen in other settings as well. This was part of my macro point about how to actually overcome bullying. The child and/or parent in the condition you are describing needs to seek help in overcoming their issues and learn to become more assertive and stick up for themselves. You did mention one important facet though and that is it seems kids who have issues with bullies tend to have parents who were also bullied and/or are afraid of conflict.
I prefer for my kids to wake up confident that they can handle what their little world will most likely throw at them that day. They also know that mom and dad are confident in handling whatever the world may throw at them that day, including laying the proverbial smack down on a school if needed to defend the rights and person of their child. Their confidence means they almost never need mine...
Do I have statistics on how many times a group of boys supposedly punches a girl? No. I do know that around 15-20% of bullying incidents are considered to be "physical", but this is defined as everything from taking or damaging belongings to pinching, spitting, pushing, tripping, slapping, punching and kicking. I think it's reasonable to say that the situation as described by the OP is not exactly a "common" act of bullying. I also agree that the risk of real harm needs to be factored in, but such a determination comes from having way more information than we do.
You are missing the point. The frequency, commonality, extremity are not part of the action determination equation At All.
Do I recall correctly that the girl in question was punched in the face? Then I say we have all the information we need. This is not an ouchie. I can tell you, that if someone punched me in the face, they would be getting a visit from the police. Last time I checked that was assault.
That's hoping the bullying actually does stop, and the school doesn't suspend you. It's a serious infraction to public schools now when children stand up for themselves.
But is that worse than becoming a full time doormat? I guess I think that becoming a doormat is much worse than getting in trouble at school.
Bullies pick on the vulnerable. If you were bullied and fought back, it stopped for you, but you can be sure they moved on to someone else. In an ideal world, everyone would be strong and capable and brave, but we don't live in an ideal world. But that does not mean that the weak and wimpy among us should be terrorized.
This this this. Bravo!! This is what I kept trying to get across.
There are some kids out there who can't fight, there are some who don't want to fight. They should have the right to not have to do it, just like adults do.
I admit it, I'm biased here. I have a phobia of pain and physical violence, I really do. As a parent, I wouldn't blink at having to go and verbally dish it out with administration, to call on police, media, whatever it takes. Call it passive aggressive. But both when I was a child and now, I balk at the prospect of physical pain, it terrifies me. Now I don't know if that's a genetic failing or a mental issue, I do know my parents tried very hard to get me to toughen up and defend myself when I was a child; I was put into karate lessons, and my dad, who was into martial arts when was younger, even did those really tough bootcamp-style sessions with me at home, trying to get me to toughen up and not be afraid of pain, building strength, teaching to punch and kick. Didn't help, didn't do a thing. I still simply could not fathom raising a hand against a bully. Just couldn't do it. Not to mention, I abhored all this stuff. I was a weak little girly girl and I liked it that way, I wanted to be left alone so I can read my books and play with dolls, I didn't want to learn to hit, and I sure as hell didn't want to risk aggravating the bully so they'd escalate it and I'd get hurt. 'Taking' the minor picking and insults (thankfully it never really escalated to more than that) was endlessly preferable to me than getting in a physical fight. Some people are just like that. It's not a fatal character flaw, and it shouldn't be viewed as such.
Oh, and by the way. To those who keep talking about being a victim in the 'real world' all your life. I haven't been, or felt like a victim, or experienced anything I would refer to as bullying or harassment, since I left high school. In college, work, activities, out in the world, I was treated with a respect and as a human being, because that's what adults do. At no other time are people as cruel and ruthless as kids. I can hold up my own verbally and psychologically with no problem. But the physical thing - no, that's just not me. Doesn't mean I became somehow mentally crippled for life.
You are missing the point. The frequency, commonality, extremity are not part of the action determination equation At All.
Do I recall correctly that the girl in question was punched in the face? Then I say we have all the information we need. This is not an ouchie. I can tell you, that if someone punched me in the face, they would be getting a visit from the police. Last time I checked that was assault.
We're vacillating between the discusion of bullying theory and this exact incident for which we have woefully little information and background. I have said several times how I would handle this exact situation and it certainly would involve me as a parent in the school and involving the authorities. That however seems to be beyond the ability of the OP for some reason. The rest of my comments were directed at the "cut and run" crowd. It is apparent why certain people have children who are bullied and others don't.
The teachers union puts these add's out about bulling and act like their doing something about it, when in reality it's just an add campaign to try and cover their butt's.. It's a sham. Bulling is going strong in most schools and will continue to do so..
Maybe cut the their pay and we will see some change..until then, nothing will change..Just more smoke and mirrors..Children
shooting up schools and killing themselves. What a mess the public school system is, and yet on every political campaign we hear "more money for education" what a joke. The median average for a public school teacher is 51,000 a year. Not bad for
working 9 months out of the year with all the best benefits...yet even with their increased pay that they demand year after year our students our US students are falling behind to other industrialized countries..I wonder what the pay is for the teachers countries??
Bulling will continue and get worse, not better. The public school system is failing and will only get worse..
Yes there are a few good teachers, but the system is broken.. I blame PC..
I'm good friends with a family with a fairly high-functioning autistic son. He's bright, but has some communication issues, flaps sometimes and has an odd forced speech pattern.
The OP has not given any indication that her DD is one of the extremely tiny minority that cannot fight back. Giving extreme examples does not help the OP. Her DD sounds like a regular kid who can fight back so she needs to learn how to do so. Fighting back does not always mean physically fighting.
You are right when you say that bullies pick on the vulnerable. That is why people who can act in ways that make them seem less vulnerable should do so.
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