Does Pennsylvania border a southern state? (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: high school, college, gated)

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by toobusytoday

I grew up in lower Delaware. We were never taught that it was a Southern State. The Maryland border was about 30 minutes from me, it seemed very similar. I guess we could all dual it out with links. Northern By Definition: Is Maryland a Southern State? | heythoughts

I don't know why so many people fall back on the "we were taught" thing. What you learned from Ms. Crabapple in 1990 is not the same thing as primary sources and academic literature that shed light on the subject.

Whether Maryland is currently a southern or northern state is a debate that's raging all over the internet. The fact that there's any debate at all, imo, suggests that the answer is inconclusive, at least from a cultural perspective. But that's not something I'm going to entertain here. I was only addressing the assertion that "none of the states bordering Pennsylvania were ever considered southern" as that's simply not true. Maryland was considered a southern state for most of its history. It's not until recent times that the state's mood has become "unsouthern."

[fisheye]

Just out of curiosity; does anybody remember segregated bathrooms in the 1950s? We used to travel down Route 13 and take the ferry over to mainland and I remember the segregated bathrooms on the ferries. I was too young to pay attention to whether or not this was wide spread or stopped at the VA state line?

[gwillyfromphilly]

Yes, West Virginia.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by fisheye

Just out of curiosity; does anybody remember segregated bathrooms in the 1950s? We used to travel down Route 13 and take the ferry over to mainland and I remember the segregated bathrooms on the ferries. I was too young to pay attention to whether or not this was wide spread or stopped at the VA state line?

My father remembers it very well. He was a student at Howard University in the 1960s. My uncles participated in some of the earliest sit ins in the Maryland suburbs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/washin...rk/8619821303/

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8493/8...c40aa82f_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8370/8...29ea98bf_n.jpg

There were "Whites Only" signs on water fountains and bathrooms. Blacks weren't allowed to sit at countertops until the 1960s; you could order your food from the back and then leave. If you were Black, you couldn't try on clothes in the store, and if you bought them you weren't allowed to return them. It was a very different place then.

The University of Maryland has a lot of good material in its archives about the Civil Rights movement in Maryland.

Another good account of Maryland, at least from a Black perspective, is Reginald Lewis' autobiography. Lewis was the country's first Black billionaire who was born and raised in East Baltimore in the 50s and 60s. Here's an excerpt from the book.

The Baltimore of the 1940s and 1950s was a city of gentility, slow living, and racial segregation. No one had heard of civil rights or Martin Luther King. As in other southern cities, there were many things Black people couldn't do.

It's interesting to read accounts like these because you get to see how much places change over time (and how people's perceptions of places change).

Now what I don't like is revising or minimizing certain aspects of history, as is the case with exhortations to revise the state song. If you don't like the song, fine, then choose another one. But to try to paper over history by changing the lyrics goes too far, imo.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...-song-maryland

[toobusytoday]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

I don't know why so many people fall back on the "we were taught" thing. What you learned from Ms. Crabapple in 1990 is not the same thing as primary sources and academic literature that shed light on the subject.

Whether Maryland is currently a southern or northern state is a debate that's raging all over the internet. The fact that there's any debate at all, imo, suggests that the answer is inconclusive, at least from a cultural perspective. But that's not something I'm going to entertain here. I was only addressing the assertion that "none of the states bordering Pennsylvania were ever considered southern" as that's simply not true. Maryland was considered a southern state for most of its history. It's not until recent times that the state's mood has become "unsouthern."

I'm not talking about one class, the history of the state was drilled in over 12 years of schooling. 1990? My oldest child was born before that. I would argue that teachers that teach state history probably know a bit more than we posters who are just googling stuff to prove our points.

But, if you want to argue about what the OP bolded this part in his opening post,

Vote based on today, not historically.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by toobusytoday

I'm not talking about one class, the history of the state was drilled in over 12 years of schooling. 1990? My oldest child was born before that. I would argue that teachers that teach state history probably know a bit more than we posters who are just googling stuff to prove our points.

I wouldn't. Elementary, middle and high school teachers aren't trained historians. Besides, you saw the poll in the thread I created, and the overwhelming majority in the Maryland forum agreed that it was historically a southern state. Not to mention the fact that the Census Bureau, when it conceived of its regional designations in 1910, placed Maryland in the American South, which was logical because Maryland and Virginia had been considered the "Upper South" from colonial times up until that point. Adopting "Maryland! My Maryland" in 1939 could certainly be interpreted as a reaffirmation of its southern identity (along with joining the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association shortly thereafter). I mean, it's pretty clear that Maryland wouldn't adopt a song like that in 2014 (Mississippi, on the other hand, still might).

Originally Posted by toobusytoday

But, if you want to argue about what the OP bolded this part in his opening post,

There are already five billion threads on that exact topic.

[toobusytoday]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

I wouldn't. Elementary, middle and high school teachers aren't trained historians. Besides, you saw the poll in the thread I created, and the overwhelming majority in the Maryland forum agreed that it was historically a southern state. Not to mention the fact that the Census Bureau, when it conceived of its regional designations in 1910, placed Maryland in the American South, which was logical because Maryland and Virginia had been considered the "Upper South" from colonial times up until that point. Adopting "Maryland! My Maryland" in 1939 could certainly be interpreted as a reaffirmation of its southern identity (along with joining the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association shortly thereafter). I mean, it's pretty clear that Maryland wouldn't adopt a song like that in 2014 (Mississippi, on the other hand, still might).

But this is the PA forum and the votes right now are 5:1, agreeing that they're not.

There are already five billion threads on that exact topic.

If we threw out all the threads that haven't already been re-hashed, there would be no city-data. Hence we talk about stuff like this....

[BajanYankee]

And in the Baltimore forum, a majority said they're "not Northeastern." But I suppose Baltimore can be the largest urban area in the state that's un-southern but yet engulfed by northerness from the Eastern Shore to Western Maryland.

Is Baltimore an Northeastern city?

In my opinion, once you're in a region, you are where you are. It doesn't really matter what changes occur; it's just a part of the same region that's different from the rest of the region. With the way things are shaping up, with Virginia rapidly filling up with transplants and immigrants, it might be considered "un-southern" in the next few decades.

[pman]

maryland, VA, DE, PA, and NJ are mid-atlantic states geographically. culturally things change gradually, not all of a sudden. Baltimore is a northern city of immigrants and industrialization...something that smacks you in the face if you visit the city. by the 1950's baltimore already had a bad rap. the reality is that "north versus south" is just another hard line that doesn't really exist and never really did.

[NowAndLater]

Alhough the Mason-Dixon line is most commonly associated with the division between the northern and southern (free and slave, respectively) states during the 1800s and American Civil War-era, the line was delineated in the mid-1700s to settle a property dispute. The two surveyors who mapped the line, Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon, will always be known for their famous boundary.

In 1632, King Charles I of England gave the first Lord Baltimore, George Calvert, the colony of Maryland. Fifty years later, in 1682, King Charles II gave William Penn the territory to the north, which later became Pennsylvania. A year later, Charles II gave Penn land on the Delmarva Peninsula (the peninsula that includes the eastern portion of modern Maryland and all of Delaware).

http://geography.about.com/od/politi...asondixon.html

I suppose this is a matter of opinion now as it has nothing to do with slavery. That being said, my family goes back to the late 1700's in the south and we believe anyone above the Mason-Dixon is a northerner, or a yank. :P

However, opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance.