Penn Alexander encatchment and surrounding areas (Philadelphia, Swarthmore: middle-class, crime, house)

[lost4now]

Originally Posted by tarp

Brutal honesty? You would be crazy to expose your children to living in University City. Stay away - live in the suburbs.

What areas would you suggest? DM if you prefer....

[tarp]

It really depends on your budget and what you are looking for. The factors are... housing cost... ease of commute... quality of school district... education/affluence level of the population... access to amenities. You can live in places with access to mass transit (PATCO from Jersey, Septa from PA suburbs) or places where you would need to drive. You can live in 99.9% white suburbs or places with some diversity. You can spend $500k+ on a house, or buy one for $200k or less (still in a good school district). So it all really depends on what you are looking for. I will say for affordable housing with ease of access to University City while still being in a very safe suburb with great schools, Drexel Hill (part of Upper Darby Township) is worth looking into. If money is no object and you don't mind snobbishness but want the best public schools you can find, Lower Merion Township is the gold standard. Educated upper middle class towns would include Media, Swarthmore, Springfield. Further afield on the PA side there are many great areas up near King of Prussia but I would advise you to avoid the I-76 schuylkill expressway commute by any means necessary. It is horrible. Your best bets for good school districts and good housing prices, and EASY commute, are across the river in Jersey - Haddon Township, Cherry Hill, Voorhees, amongst others. You can take the PATCO in (and transfer to septa) or drive in. The bridges are never very congested, though the toll is $4 to leave Jersey. If you want more house for your money, and lower taxes, and don't mind living further out with less amenities, there are many places in South Jersey to consider. You won't find much diversity or high levels of education outside of the more affluent closer-in suburbs, however.

One area to consider might be Audubon or Oaklyn, NJ - directly across the Walt Whitman Bridge, somewhat blue collar but very safe and clean, and a 15 minute (or less) ride to University city. Probably the easiest commute to Penn from a suburb with good schools. Haddon Township is only slightly farther and has a better ranked school district, though, so that would be my first choice.

[fifi le pew]

Look, you certainly wouldn't be "crazy" for "exposing" your children to University City living. Good lord, talk about hyperbole!

Many professionals, including professors, doctors, lawyers, live and raise children in University City and find it to be a phenomenal place to raise children. I'm raising my children in another neighborhood in Center City and find it to be a fantastic and wonderful experience. Personally, i dont' like the suburbs and wouldn't want to raise my children there, but each family has different wants/desires, so it's impossible to tell you whether you will love it or hate it, not knowing the values/things you care most about.

Now, granted, the first question you need to ask yourself is whether or not you are a city or suburban person. If you like city living, then living and raising children could be a wonderful experience in West Philadelphia. Sadie Alexander is a phenomenal school, but I know parents at Powell and Lea (also in West Philly) who think their children are receiving a very good education. If you find value in walking places, being in a cultural center, exposing your children to other races and socio-economic classes, then perhaps living in the city will be right for your family. On the other hand, if you value more space or a more quiet existence, then the suburbs are probably a better bet for your family.

As a general rule, the schools are probably better in the suburbs. You could move to a good district and insure that your children have good opportunity K through 12. In the city, I think you have to be more pro-active, and realize that to get a good education, you can't just sit back. Having said that,however, there are some great neighborhood elementary schools (Alexander being one of the best) and some phenomenal high schools that outrank most of their suburban counterparts (Masterman, Central, Bodine, GAMP). So, it's not impossible to get a very high quality education in Philadelphia-it's just a little more difficult to manage than in the best suburbs.

I live in the city and I'm raising two children. We have 15 children on my block under the age of 10. They play together all the time. I walk my kids to school and walk them home from their after-care every day. They go to the park which is only 1/2 block from our house most days. We walk to restaurants and to museums and go to plays, etc. It is a really nice lifestyle and I think a very good lifestyle for raising kids. They also see homeless people on a regular basis and see mentally ill people on the streets. Is that good or bad? I'm not sure. Most people would probably think that a bad thing, but for us, it is a part of life that we talked about early on and I think it has made them aware and not sheltered. Some people do not want to expose their kids to that when young. I get that.

I guess my overall point is that you have to evaluate what works for your family, but please don't listen to someone who would label people "crazy" just because they don't understand or value other people's choices.

[tarp]

First of all, you live in Center City which is a LOT safer than University City. Secondly, you readily admit that you are forced to escort your children to and from school because they see mentally ill and homeless people on a regular basis. I don't know about you, but I choose not to expose my children to those social ills. I choose to raise my kids in a place where they can be children... ride their bikes around the neighborhood, walk to the park, play outside, without fear for their safety. I also choose not to live in a place where I have to be "proactive" to ensure the schools are doing their job. I pay the taxes and I expect the schools to meet certain standards, which the Philadelphia schools do not.

"University City" is part of West Philly, and is bordered by some very, very rough neighborhoods. Why anyone with the means to avoid it would choose to expose their children to the urban decay and high crime rate of inner-city Philadelphia, is beyond me. There are shootings, robberies, and muggings on a daily basis in these areas, and the crime does spill over into the "gentrified" parts. Do you really want to live in a place where you feel uneasy if your wife has to run outside to get something from her car after dark?

[fifi le pew]

Originally Posted by tarp

First of all, you live in Center City which is a LOT safer than University City. Secondly, you readily admit that you are forced to escort your children to and from school because they see mentally ill and homeless people on a regular basis. I don't know about you, but I choose not to expose my children to those social ills. I choose to raise my kids in a place where they can be children... ride their bikes around the neighborhood, walk to the park, play outside, without fear for their safety. I also choose not to live in a place where I have to be "proactive" to ensure the schools are doing their job. I pay the taxes and I expect the schools to meet certain standards, which the Philadelphia schools do not.

"University City" is part of West Philly, and is bordered by some very, very rough neighborhoods. Why anyone with the means to avoid it would choose to expose their children to the urban decay and high crime rate of inner-city Philadelphia, is beyond me. There are shootings, robberies, and muggings on a daily basis in these areas, and the crime does spill over into the "gentrified" parts. Do you really want to live in a place where you feel uneasy if your wife has to run outside to get something from her car after dark?

No, I walk my children to and from school because it's a great part of our day and I get quality time with my kids while walking with them and they get a little bit of exercise along the way. I walk them to school and walk to work, not because I'm "forced to" or to avoid homeless people, but because I'm able to do it and still get to work on time. Quite frankly, it is one of the absolute best parts of my day and to be able to do that every day is priceless to me.

And, my kids do all the things you cite--ride their bikes, go to the park, etc. And yes, I live in Center City but have many acquaintances who live in the Sadie Alexander catchement, and they also think they have a pretty great life. It may be "beyond you" to conceive of why someone would choose to do that, but families are paying $500,000 to do just that and in fact, the catchement has more families than it can hold, so there are many, many people who find that to be a valuable lifestyle.

Look, I said that I can understand why other people may make different choices for their families. You don't understand why people might make different rational choices than you. Fine.

[orrmobl]

I gave both of you props for rational, well reasoned arguments - a rare thing online or on City-Data.

I had also recommended further downtown or the burbs. Fifi, where are you located and what other neighborhoods can you recommend?

In the burbs, I'd go for Jersey or the Lower Merion, Wallingford-Swarthmore (really great, very liberal area), Rose Tree Media or Haverford school districts. Not Upper Darby SD which encompasses most of Drexel Hill...there is a section called Pilgrim Gardens which is very Catholic and goes to Haverford schools. Another district to consider would be Springfield, Del. County.

[lost4now]

This is what I'm looking for.... Want to know what others think about the Penn Alexander catchment area. as well as other areas of Philly.

We will weigh all our options, and ultimately what will be best for our kids.

[lost4now]

Originally Posted by fifi le pew

No, I walk my children to and from school because it's a great part of our day and I get quality time with my kids while walking with them and they get a little bit of exercise along the way. I walk them to school and walk to work, not because I'm "forced to" or to avoid homeless people, but because I'm able to do it and still get to work on time. Quite frankly, it is one of the absolute best parts of my day and to be able to do that every day is priceless to me.

And, my kids do all the things you cite--ride their bikes, go to the park, etc. And yes, I live in Center City but have many acquaintances who live in the Sadie Alexander catchement, and they also think they have a pretty great life. It may be "beyond you" to conceive of why someone would choose to do that, but families are paying $500,000 to do just that and in fact, the catchement has more families than it can hold, so there are many, many people who find that to be a valuable lifestyle.

Look, I said that I can understand why other people may make different choices for their families. You don't understand why people might make different rational choices than you. Fine.

What area of Center City are you in?

[fifi le pew]

Originally Posted by lost4now

What area of Center City are you in?

Wash West

[Clark Park]

I grew up in the suburbs, and I hate the suburbs.

To me the suburbs are soulless wastelands of human alienation.

I live in University City and I like it just fine. For one thing, I do not always have to depend upon my car to go everywhere ... the super market, the dry cleaners, the post office, the bank, the public library, the independent coffee shop, the public park, the farmer's market, the bookshop, the church/mosque/synagogue/temple, yoga studio, locksmith, auto mechanic are all within a 5 or 6 block walk away.

Within 6 blocks of my house there are these types of restaurants:
-Ethiopian
-Laotian
-Italian
-Japanese
-Kosher Deli
-Chinese
-Vegetarian
-Thai
-Mexican
-Vietnamese
-Greek
-Moroccan
-Caribbean
-Middle Eastern
-Indian
etc.

There are a lot of kids living in this neighborhood, and that is why the Sadie Alexander school is near capacity.

Besides, my neighborhood is a registered historic district with hundreds of examples of gorgeous Victorian architecture. Check out this streetscape at Spruce Street and 42nd: