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Anyone who thinks that the good parts of South Philly are isolated is just plain ignorant- not only are most of the good parts of South Philly contiguous, but they're also contiguous to all the nice neighorhoods in Center City. Try walking from South and Passyunk all the way down Passyunk, make a gentle left on 12st and keep walking down, then make a right on Moyamensing. You'd lose 5000 calories on a summer day before you'd ever spot a ghetto.
TO b1gnasty and CrashTestPelosi: You both say that blacks, in general, ruined South Philly, but I find that to be only half the truth since blacks lived in South Philly since colonial times (Grays Ferry comes to mind) before other immigrants (Italian, Jewish, Polish, etc.) set foot in South Philly.
Before the proliferation of crack cocaine, guns, and other drugs in the 80's and deindustrilization in the 60's and 70's, many black communities were in fact, very stable. Relatively poor, but stable, meaning stable families and stable schools. With suburbanization happening, starting in the 1950's, Philly's population started to drop. Now with revitalized communities like NoLibs, Fairmount, and Brewerytown, Philly's population is on an upswing.
Here's my problem w/ the two of you: you might have well known (or not) that Philly used to be dominated by Italians, in terms of population. Yet you continue to bash Philly, which I don't understand. I don't even see this type of bashing from NYC Italians when it comes to their city, so I shouldn't see the same from Philly Italians. Plus there's other neighborhoods where Italians can live (like Roxbourough, Overbrook, Mount Airy, Frankford, Tacony, and the rest of the NE. Also Montgomery County (Abington/Cheltenham/Willow Grove area) and Chester County (West Chester and Coatesville/Downingtown areas) seem to be good areas to plant roots, which is why I don't understand South Jersey as the premier place for Italians in this city, especially since you always had good communities like Montco and Chesco, and even the Lehigh Valley.
I'm no fan of forced integration, but I do believe that everybody plays a part in maintaining this city.
TO b1gnasty and CrashTestPelosi: You both say that blacks, in general, ruined South Philly, but I find that to be only half the truth since blacks lived in South Philly since colonial times (Grays Ferry comes to mind) before other immigrants (Italian, Jewish, Polish, etc.) set foot in South Philly.
Before the proliferation of crack cocaine, guns, and other drugs in the 80's and deindustrilization in the 60's and 70's, many black communities were in fact, very stable. Relatively poor, but stable, meaning stable families and stable schools. With suburbanization happening, starting in the 1950's, Philly's population started to drop. Now with revitalized communities like NoLibs, Fairmount, and Brewerytown, Philly's population is on an upswing.
Here's my problem w/ the two of you: you might have well known (or not) that Philly used to be dominated by Italians, in terms of population. Yet you continue to bash Philly, which I don't understand. I don't even see this type of bashing from NYC Italians when it comes to their city, so I shouldn't see the same from Philly Italians. Plus there's other neighborhoods where Italians can live (like Roxbourough, Overbrook, Mount Airy, Frankford, Tacony, and the rest of the NE. Also Montgomery County (Abington/Cheltenham/Willow Grove area) and Chester County (West Chester and Coatesville/Downingtown areas) seem to be good areas to plant roots, which is why I don't understand South Jersey as the premier place for Italians in this city, especially since you always had good communities like Montco and Chesco, and even the Lehigh Valley.
I'm no fan of forced integration, but I do believe that everybody plays a part in maintaining this city.
Being Bi-racial, my take is it's not Black people as individuals that sets many whites off, but urban Black culture. I too hate Inner-City Philly culture, and that's what most upstanding folks are fleeing from.
Also, Italians more than most ethnics, tend to like their neighborhoods "Italian" and anything that upsets that will be met by either fight or flight. NY's italian hoods have faced the same demise. Sadly, the movie "Jungle Fever" is a testament to the attitudes of some urban Italians. Notice how the Irish have still to this day fought to hold on to their slice of Kensington vs how the Italians pretty much ran screaming over the bridges.
I'm not pointing fingers at any one group, I just know the facts. Grays Ferry used to be (less than 20 years ago) a clean neighborhood where sports leagues were filled, 5 days a week. Older folks sat in their beach chairs on summer nights, the fireplug kept us cool and the mom n pop stores were open til 10-11 every night. By the way, nobody was wealthy or privelaged in any way. As a matter of fact, they lived with much less than we have today. For some reason, those people no longer live there and its domintaed by young black people; very few as "families" but more of a mish mosh of people stuffed into houses having babies and more babies. Children are out til whenever they come home, trash is everywhere and open doors blast rap music 24/7. Doesn't seem like too many people work either (yes, this includes the whites too). Am I supposed to feel sorry for these poor victims who can't ever sweep their fronts or leash their pitbulls? Saything this stuff is racial heresy but its just the plain truth which political correctness excuses and avoids. My 81 year old parents take more pride in their home than the thugs up the next block. That is why the area is a ghetto. Period.
I'm not pointing fingers at any one group, I just know the facts. Grays Ferry used to be (less than 20 years ago) a clean neighborhood where sports leagues were filled, 5 days a week. Older folks sat in their beach chairs on summer nights, the fireplug kept us cool and the mom n pop stores were open til 10-11 every night. By the way, nobody was wealthy or privelaged in any way. As a matter of fact, they lived with much less than we have today. For some reason, those people no longer live there and its domintaed by young black people; very few as "families" but more of a mish mosh of people stuffed into houses having babies and more babies. Children are out til whenever they come home, trash is everywhere and open doors blast rap music 24/7. Doesn't seem like too many people work either (yes, this includes the whites too). Am I supposed to feel sorry for these poor victims who can't ever sweep their fronts or leash their pitbulls? Saything this stuff is racial heresy but its just the plain truth which political correctness excuses and avoids. My 81 year old parents take more pride in their home than the thugs up the next block. That is why the area is a ghetto. Period.
Listen, I'm black but I'm not a slave to political correctness. I dont like decadence/thugism/laziness in any form. I'm glad you pointed out that the whites you see in that area don't seem to work either, but you then refocus on the blacks. The fact that there ar nice stable largely black areas of the city and suburbs (Yeadon, Ardmore, parts of Springfield, Mt Airy, parts of Germantown, University City, Wynnefield, Overbrook) proves that blacks in an area doesn't automatically equal the area will go to crap. It's class based. Grays Ferry/Point Breeze was poor before as you pointed out. It wouldn't attract the kind of blacks who would try to keep the neighborhood stable, because they could afford to move elsewhere. Same thing with South Philly, the Northeast, and Kensington/Port Richmond/Frankford.
The poor whites in those places had to deal with crime and "low class" behavior too..ask any cop who was around in the 70's or early 80s (as I have). I know in the black community its an open secret that if a black guy and a white guy commit the same offense, blacks tend to support the black guy because they identify with them, even though the behavior was the same. Along the same lines, I think the "otherness" of blacks make many whites see the behavior as even worse than it is. White "druggies", "bums", "low lifes" etc are still sons and daughters, not those alien criminals from other parts of the city coming in to invade and destroy.
Also, I'm sure Grays Ferry, like the other communities I mentioned, had a sizeable number of residents who were police or relatives of cops, that stabilizes neighborhoods too. Many residents, though poor, were probably homeowners, another factor that builds pride and strenghtens neghborhoods. Sect 8 often kills that. (Hell, trailer parks in the sticks prove that theory also, go to one you wanna talk about trash and filth? And we know what group of people tend to live in them)
Additionally, when blacks move in to certain neighborhoods, the services often move out, so while indeed they shoudn't be throwing trash around, if the city doesn't clean the streets and sidewalks in an area when they did previously, that will be reflected in the filth on streets. If they dont patrol and target quality of life crimes (like pitbulls, loud noise, and errant children) the way they did before, the neighborhood becomes the ghetto. A poor white neighborhood turning into a poor black neighborhood will be a reflection of where each group is at in society. Poor blacks are worse off in many ways (more single parents=lack of discipline, incarceration), so you see it in the community. Doesn't mean blacks as a group are responsible, any more than non racist Whites are representative of their racist counterparts.
The whole diversity is "awesome" idea is a total sham, it doesn't work. It creates neighborhoods where people barely interact with each other, and are less likely to build a strong community, by volunteering, cleaning the streets, etc. I wrote a bunch of stuff about diverse neighborhoods on the NYC forum last month, I basically destroyed the diversity is grand myth.
You need a visit to Northwest Philly (Chestnut Hill, Mount Airy, Roxborough, East Falls, West Germantown, East Oak Lane). Many ethnic groups interact and live amongst eachother quite peacefully. In fact I would argue it is the safest section of the city.
I agree with both of you. I'm pointing out Grays Ferry proper and what happened there (and SW Philly as well). I have plenty of black friends and they share the same beliefs, many actually use the "N" word to describe that type! I just know that in that area, it is filty and dirty where it was once clean and nice. Like I said, I'm from there and not singeling out 1 group. All I know is that now, its a hell hole. The whites there, under 35, at 29th n Reed are to blame as well as few have ever worked a day in their lives.
Additionally, when blacks move in to certain neighborhoods, the services often move out, so while indeed they shoudn't be throwing trash around, if the city doesn't clean the streets and sidewalks in an area when they did previously, that will be reflected in the filth on streets. If they dont patrol and target quality of life crimes (like pitbulls, loud noise, and errant children) the way they did before, the neighborhood becomes the ghetto. A poor white neighborhood turning into a poor black neighborhood will be a reflection of where each group is at in society. Poor blacks are worse off in many ways (more single parents=lack of discipline, incarceration), so you see it in the community. Doesn't mean blacks as a group are responsible, any more than non racist Whites are representative of their racist counterparts.
I generally agree with you but living as I do in one of those neighborhoods I disagree on a few key points - namely that services leave a neighborhood when white people leave. That's just plain old not true. The mostly white neighborhoods deal with the same issues that the mostly black neighborhoods deal with - the white neighborhoods are just better organized and are better at being the squeaky wheel and demanding resources. In the mostly black neighborhoods people are more concerned with the status of being a block captain/community leader and preserving their power and less concerned with the actual problems. (this is more an issue of poverty than of race but in south philly it's a noticeable problem)
One of the biggest problems we have with quality of life issues are the landlords who rent to scumbags. A lot of these landlords are the former italian residents who have moved to the suburbs. Many of them are people of all ethnicities who live in other parts of the city.
The other problem is cultural - and not in a black/white/asian way but in a South Philly way. Long time residents don't call the cops. Sometimes it's because they want to try to handle it in a more diplomatic way but most of the time it's because the troublemaker is so-and-so's nephew and "he isn't really bothering anyone" sitting on the corner selling drugs. It's how organized crime flourishes.
People in these neighborhoods have the (extremely ignorant) impression that "oh, white people are moving back here now all of the sudden the police are coming around and L&I is checking on violations." It's not because we're white. It's because we have 911 and 311 on speed dial and because we've organized in large groups and feed the police captain real time information via email. And the attitudes of the older residents are the same on 9th St. as they are on 16th St. except the old time residents on 9th St. phrase it differently - "oh, now these people with money are moving down here so the cops are gonna start doing their jobs."
They went back to Italy for a better quality of life.
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