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Practically speaking, I would think the best options would be to have an AC Line Spur that hits Maple Shade, Moorestown, somewhere in Mt. Laurel, and Mt. Holly. On the existing AC Line, add a Merchantville stop (technically it would be right outside of Merchantville and in Pennsauken, but close enough). The Glassboro-Camden Line should ideally be PATCO rather than Light Rail. The problem with Light Rail is that it is snail rail. It's just too slow for commuters. I would also add that another PATCO spur for Laurel Springs, Barrington, Haddon Heights, Audubon, and Oaklyn would be a smart choice, as those towns are all built to accomodate the stations with a walkable downtown grid (albeit some are quite small in size), and if you run PATCO further in Philly, you should have more options for NJ commuters since each trip would take longer in its total distance. After Oaklyn, it could continue on its existing path to meet with the Glassboro-Camden PATCO extension, or it can build a short connection to Ferry Avenue on the existing line.
None of this would ever happen, but if a guy could dream, then I would say we could also dream about a summer seasonal line from Atlantic City to Cape May, hitting all of the major towns in between. I realize that may just not be possible from an engineering perspective, let alone NIMBY issues. And a light rail connecting Smithville, Stockton University in Galloway, ACY Airport, Pleasantville, and the AC Rail Terminal. All things considered, with Stockton opening the AC campus, there could actually be legit reasons to offer that as a transportation option. It's also a shame that towns as big and wealthy as Medford and Marlton don't have any commuter rail options. New tracks would have to be built altogether to accommodate them, and of course, that is never going to happen. But in a dreamer's world, I could see that line getting built around their small downtown areas, which could spurn development there, and possibly hit another Mt. Laurel stop, the Cherry Hill Mall area, and then Merchantville again as another AC Line spur.
Yea, I think the AC Line spur seems like it makes sense as part of regional planning. I'm thinking that with that spur means increased frequency from Merchantville on, so it might make sense to make a stop at the North Philadelphia station it currently runs straight through for the AC Line (even if it means negotiating with NJT to have more than one stop within the city) that allows for transfers to the Broad Street Line and the other trains which would make it usable for people in South Jersey working or going to Temple University or the Temple University medical complex. I'm wondering if there are direct track connections from the bottom platform level of 30th Street Station that the AC Line goes through to reach the airport bound tracks. That could be useful and if the wait time between trains at the airport were more like 15 or 20 minutes headways than 30 minutes headways, then it'd be a more common option.
I honestly know little about what's along Atlantic City to Cape May, but that's an interesting dream. Was there ever a line running that length? Are there existing tracks or even right-of-way on that path?
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-25-2018 at 08:16 AM..
I think that service was an act of pure expediency, built simply because there was a railroad ROW lying around that happened to run south from Trenton.
The state sought Federal Transit Administration "New Starts" funding for it and got laughed out of the room.
Yeah, but those expectations were so low they couldn't get Federal assistance for building it. That should tell you something.
The Glassboro-Camden light rail line will use those tracks for most of its route.
I actually have ridden the River Line. Three times now. Only one of them was because I wanted to go somewhere on it.
The dirty little secret is, the line exceeds ridership projections because NJ Tranit all but pays you to ride it.
Right, I think it was built because it was relatively inexpensive with its existing right of way, offered connections to two major transfer points at the time (now three though the Atlantic City Line has pretty limited service currently) and could be done at the time.
Those expectations were low, but since it's been hitting 8K to 9K weekday ridership averages with 5k weekend riderships rather than the 5.5K average riderships, it's maybe less laughable? With better PATCO and Atlantic City Line service which it connects to, this line probably would do a bit better and might actually warrant double-tracking with that.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-25-2018 at 08:05 AM..
I honestly know little about what's along Atlantic City to Cape May, but that's an interesting dream. Was there ever a line running that length? Are there existing tracks or even right-of-way on that path?
There is nothing railroad wise anymore between AC and Cape May. AC has its terminal, and Cape May has a historic station that even up to a few years ago was used for kitschy excursion rides. Crazily enough, the Shore towns in between used to have stops, but as far as I know now, they were all dig up and built over, leaving nothing today.
Does it really make any sense to extend PATCO in New Jersey? I mean, every station from Ferry to Lindenwold is a full blown park and ride with huge parking lots. I would guess that over 80% of riders at those stations, drive to those stations. So by adding spurs at an incredible expense, you are simply decreasing the distance someone has to drive to a given station. That makes zero sense.
Does it really make any sense to extend PATCO in New Jersey? I mean, every station from Ferry to Lindenwold is a full blown park and ride with huge parking lots. I would guess that over 80% of riders at those stations, drive to those stations. So by adding spurs at an incredible expense, you are simply decreasing the distance someone has to drive to a given station. That makes zero sense.
It doesn't seem like there's a strong argument for it except for maybe a Glassboro spur in some stops where there's a main street of sorts close to the station (and Glassboro also has a university). Since it'd be splitting the main line for slots with the current PATCO branch, it'd probably operate more like a decently frequent commuter rail line.
If South Jersey's economy does well, then the existing park and ride spots might end up becoming useful transit-oriented development areas, but I don't think there's been any sort of development moving in that direction.
I think so far what sounds most reasonable for extensions within South Jersey are something to Glassboro (whether light rail or a spur of PATCO, but not at rapid transit frequencies) and an Atlantic City Line spur with a transfer stop at Merchantville to the existing line for a spur heading east to Mt. Holly via Maple Shade and Moorestown.
Now what would be a reasonable PATCO extension within Philadelphia for its current western terminus? If PATCO had a South Jersey spur to Glassboro, what that means is just more frequency where the spur and current line meet which is how it would be within Philadelphia. That's rapid transit frequency and that could be extended to somewhere that isn't well-served by transit and could use it either now or in the future.
Does it really make any sense to extend PATCO in New Jersey? I mean, every station from Ferry to Lindenwold is a full blown park and ride with huge parking lots. I would guess that over 80% of riders at those stations, drive to those stations. So by adding spurs at an incredible expense, you are simply decreasing the distance someone has to drive to a given station. That makes zero sense.
The only argument I could offer to counter that is that you may look at a Haddonfield Park and Ride and see a bunch of cars, but that does not mean all of those cars are Haddonfield residents. Some are driving there from Haddon Heights, Audubon, parts of Cherry Hill, etc. Lindenwold has people drive from parts of Voorhees, Gibbsboro, Clementon, Laurel Springs, Stratford, etc. Westmont can get people from Oaklyn and parts of Cherry Hill. Oaklyn residents also use Collingswood. Ashland and Woodcrest can get people from Barrington, Lawnside, Magnolia, and Somerdale
Adding a PATCO line for Laurel Springs, Barrington, Haddon Heights, Audubon, and Oaklyn would mean that those people do not need to drive to the existing stations and might not have to drive at all because they can now walk to one in their town. These towns already have existing tracks and are walkable in their vicinity. And that opens some of the existing line parking lots up to TOD.
As for Glassboro-Camden line, quite a few stations on there also are walkable and could be candidates for TOD if the economics dictated it and the state cared. I would actually say that we could do Glassboro-Camden with less stations. Don’t do any planned stations where it would not be walkable. And don’t give Wenonah a station either since the town clearly voted in opposition against it. I think you can do that line with the Camden, Gloucester City, and Westville stops for sure, and beyond that, downtown Woodbury, maybe Sewell, Pitman, and Glassboro, without having a separate stop just for Rowan (those two stops are very close to each other).
I didn't say that PATCO is allowing too much between trains. I was looking at the schedule and seeing that at peak frequency, the trains are run pretty frequently so having the Glassboro spur feed into it might be an issue. From your experience, it seems like they're already having issues without the spur though perhaps that's an issue with their state of repair or signaling system since it looks to be double-tracked throughout where the spur would ostensibly meet up with PATCO to go into Philadelphia.
I'm well aware that a transit authority needs to either negotiate with track owners on usage or flat out buy the tracks which is what GO Transit in Toronto has actively done over the last couple decades.
Yes, I do think that Philadelphia/PA should fund PATCO to have an extension out of the Philadelphia end because that extension automatically ties into several stops in Center City as well as stop in South Jersey. Depending on the route, it'd also be of some use to current PATCO riders within South Jersey though I understand that politically getting an extension within Philadelphia funded by Jersey is unlikely--so I'm saying it could be reasonable for Philadelphia/PA to fund the extension on its own because it is still beneficial giving what they can get out of it.
PATCO does not have a proper terminal since they are using a half built tunnel in Philadelphia. this could be resolved by extending PATCO westward in Philadelphia which is probably worthwhile in and of itself given that it misses the two biggest job clusters (west market and u city) and does not even provide good connections to them.
PATCO does not have a proper terminal since they are using a half built tunnel in Philadelphia. this could be resolved by extending PATCO westward in Philadelphia which is probably worthwhile in and of itself given that it misses the two biggest job clusters (west market and u city) and does not even provide good connections to them.
I wouldn't call a 2.5-block walk to 16th and Locust from 16th and Market a miss. Granted, there's no station at Rittenhouse Square itself, which would put it closer to the tallest buildings in the West Market area, but there's still one in the vicinity.
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
I wouldn't call a 2.5-block walk to 16th and Locust from 16th and Market a miss. Granted, there's no station at Rittenhouse Square itself, which would put it closer to the tallest buildings in the West Market area, but there's still one in the vicinity.
Thanks. I was so discouraged that this thread resurfaced. The line started running 50 years ago this month. Posters who neither live in Center City nor South Jersey are remarkably full of ideas and remedies but have little concept of realities. Comments referring to the park and ride lots in South Jersey have little to no concept that buses feed the stations. Getting from point A to point B in South Jersey frequently means taking a bus to a PATCO station to get a different bus.
People who live in Center City can take PATCO to Haddonfield to catch a bus, headed for the Cherry Hill mall, to go to Wegmans or the mall. That was what was behind Frank Rizzo's sense of urgency to have the Gallery built. Philadelphians were taking PATCO to get to the mall in the early 70s.
Thanks. I was so discouraged that this thread resurfaced. The line started running 50 years ago this month. Posters who neither live in Center City nor South Jersey are remarkably full of ideas and remedies but have little concept of realities. Comments referring to the park and ride lots in South Jersey have little to no concept that buses feed the stations. Getting from point A to point B in South Jersey frequently means taking a bus to a PATCO station to get a different bus.
People who live in Center City can take PATCO to Haddonfield to catch a bus, headed for the Cherry Hill mall, to go to Wegmans or the mall. That was what was behind Frank Rizzo's sense of urgency to have the Gallery built. Philadelphians were taking PATCO to get to the mall in the early 70s.
Well I'm discouraged that you decided to resurface to reiterate that only you have the true perspective on PATCO and everyone else is ignorant.
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