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Old 05-01-2019, 07:51 AM
 
752 posts, read 459,343 times
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Though I will admit I find white folks moving into the neighborhoods their parents and grandparents moved out of rather amusing.
I agree. It's very interesting and for those parents/grandparents it has to be a very unexpected conclusion to the flight dynamic they started.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:35 AM
 
Location: The City of Brotherly Love
1,304 posts, read 1,231,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonb885 View Post
Today the NYTimes has an article about gentrification in cities which includes a map with census tracks and household income levels for the entire US. Does what it depicts correspond with what people are seeing on the ground in Philadelphia?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ification.html
That gentrification map definitely corresponds to trends that I've been noticing in Philly this decade, especially (and increasingly) north of Girard Ave.

I remember a time when going above Spring Garden wasn't really advisable, and everything above it was considered North Philly instead of "Greater Center City." Over time, I've seen this line of demarcation move north to Girard Avenue. In the past few years, I believe that this line has moved further north, becoming Cecil B. Moore Ave. Pretty soon, this line will undoubtedly become Lehigh Avenue, moving from east (where development is/has already taken shape) to west. Olde Richmond and East Kensington already have new housing on Lehigh. West Kensington/Norris Square will be next. Nearly every lot along Front Street between Kensington Ave and Huntingdon Street either has a new home or foundations in the ground.

I transferred to Temple in 2016 and stayed with my mom out in Delco while I saved up for my own place, taking the Media/Elwyn or Wilmington/Newark Lines to class each morning. In 2016, Ludlow was full of vacant parcels and South Kensington was only seeing revitalization closer to Girard. Riding the Media/Elwyn Line north of CC nowadays (I live in West Philly and take advantage of the Anywhere Pass privileges on the weekends), I've noticed that nearly every lot that used to be vacant has a dwelling on it. Additionally, I saw new homes around the vicinity of 10th and Susquehanna--student housing in all likelihood. Development from South Kensington is is trickling into Norris Square now, as evidenced by the new homes I saw rising on the 2000 (between Norris and Diamond) and 2100 (between Diamond and Susquehanna) blocks of N. 5th Street and the group of new homes that have popped up on 5th and Norris.

Last Saturday, I attended the Steel Furnace Meeting in Brewerytown. I decided to walk from 27th and Girard to Temple's campus via 29th Street and Cecil B. Moore Ave. The last time I was over in that area, new development was inching closer to Oxford Ave. Now, I see that new homes are rising on the 2500 and 2600 blocks of Cecil B. Moore. That's HUGE, as the corridor has pretty much been in disarray since the Columbia Avenue Riots of 1964. When I was a student at Temple, walking west of Ridge was risky.

I was in Strawberry Mansion about a month ago, walking up N. 31st Street, across Oxford, and onto 33rd Street. I didn't see one black person until I walked north of Cecil B. Moore. Strawberry Mansion has been notorious for crime in recent history. Now, development in Brewerytown has slowly trickled across the tracks of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor.

Here in West Philly, the western line of demarcation has certainly moved west of 52nd Street, though the northern line of demarcation remains at Market Street (west of 40th). I want to say that 54th Street is the new line, with 56th Street becoming the next one over time. Penn recently expanded the boundaries of their homeownership assistance program to 56th Street, so I have no doubt that crossing 52nd Street won't be such a daring move in the near future. The 52nd Street corridor will also see new retail, I can feel it.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
558 posts, read 299,182 times
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Originally Posted by 1ondoner View Post
How did you arrive at this conclusion? It sounds like you are focusing on gentrification
Correct, that is the topic of the thread and the article.
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Old 05-01-2019, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia Pa
1,213 posts, read 954,485 times
Reputation: 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013 View Post
That gentrification map definitely corresponds to trends that I've been noticing in Philly this decade, especially (and increasingly) north of Girard Ave.

I remember a time when going above Spring Garden wasn't really advisable, and everything above it was considered North Philly instead of "Greater Center City." Over time, I've seen this line of demarcation move north to Girard Avenue. In the past few years, I believe that this line has moved further north, becoming Cecil B. Moore Ave. Pretty soon, this line will undoubtedly become Lehigh Avenue, moving from east (where development is/has already taken shape) to west. Olde Richmond and East Kensington already have new housing on Lehigh. West Kensington/Norris Square will be next. Nearly every lot along Front Street between Kensington Ave and Huntingdon Street either has a new home or foundations in the ground.

I transferred to Temple in 2016 and stayed with my mom out in Delco while I saved up for my own place, taking the Media/Elwyn or Wilmington/Newark Lines to class each morning. In 2016, Ludlow was full of vacant parcels and South Kensington was only seeing revitalization closer to Girard. Riding the Media/Elwyn Line north of CC nowadays (I live in West Philly and take advantage of the Anywhere Pass privileges on the weekends), I've noticed that nearly every lot that used to be vacant has a dwelling on it. Additionally, I saw new homes around the vicinity of 10th and Susquehanna--student housing in all likelihood. Development from South Kensington is is trickling into Norris Square now, as evidenced by the new homes I saw rising on the 2000 (between Norris and Diamond) and 2100 (between Diamond and Susquehanna) blocks of N. 5th Street and the group of new homes that have popped up on 5th and Norris.

Last Saturday, I attended the Steel Furnace Meeting in Brewerytown. I decided to walk from 27th and Girard to Temple's campus via 29th Street and Cecil B. Moore Ave. The last time I was over in that area, new development was inching closer to Oxford Ave. Now, I see that new homes are rising on the 2500 and 2600 blocks of Cecil B. Moore. That's HUGE, as the corridor has pretty much been in disarray since the Columbia Avenue Riots of 1964. When I was a student at Temple, walking west of Ridge was risky.

I was in Strawberry Mansion about a month ago, walking up N. 31st Street, across Oxford, and onto 33rd Street. I didn't see one black person until I walked north of Cecil B. Moore. Strawberry Mansion has been notorious for crime in recent history. Now, development in Brewerytown has slowly trickled across the tracks of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor.

Here in West Philly, the western line of demarcation has certainly moved west of 52nd Street, though the northern line of demarcation remains at Market Street (west of 40th). I want to say that 54th Street is the new line, with 56th Street becoming the next one over time. Penn recently expanded the boundaries of their homeownership assistance program to 56th Street, so I have no doubt that crossing 52nd Street won't be such a daring move in the near future. The 52nd Street corridor will also see new retail, I can feel it.
Love reading posts like this from knowledgeable and interested parties. Nicely written Man. I don't really get West of Broad or North of Girard much anymore, and I seldom find myself in West Philly, so it's great to hear progress is continuing on all fronts. The same exact situation is happening in South Philly - pretty much 25th street straight to the Delaware River from at least Snyder north (

So where are the outlier neighborhoods now? Are the Badlands getting any better/smaller? How about the letter streets down near K&A? Any progress there now that the heroin encampments have been displaced? And, PhilliesPhan, to your mentions of western North Philly, i was up there about a year ago for something Temple related and was amazed to see how nice a solid chunk of that neighborhood that's fairly far from campus now is. Does that have a chance to keep growing and expanding, or is it surrounded by too much poverty and blight?
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:47 PM
 
Location: The City of Brotherly Love
1,304 posts, read 1,231,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennsport View Post
Love reading posts like this from knowledgeable and interested parties. Nicely written Man. I don't really get West of Broad or North of Girard much anymore, and I seldom find myself in West Philly, so it's great to hear progress is continuing on all fronts. The same exact situation is happening in South Philly - pretty much 25th street straight to the Delaware River from at least Snyder north (

So where are the outlier neighborhoods now? Are the Badlands getting any better/smaller? How about the letter streets down near K&A? Any progress there now that the heroin encampments have been displaced? And, PhilliesPhan, to your mentions of western North Philly, i was up there about a year ago for something Temple related and was amazed to see how nice a solid chunk of that neighborhood that's fairly far from campus now is. Does that have a chance to keep growing and expanding, or is it surrounded by too much poverty and blight?
Thanks man, glad you enjoyed the post!

I can tell you right now that the feel of Kensington has been changing in a positive direction. My gym is right on the border between Fishtown and East Kensington/Olde Richmond, so I'll usually walk up Huntingdon and down Kensington Ave and settle at Somserset for the extra steps. While the area north of Lehigh still looks pretty rough, people who walk in that direction are no longer greeted by the large former encampment under the bridge. In fact, all of the former encampments have been removed and haven't reformed. It also seems as though the SEPTA Police have really stepped up their enforcement game over there. There are currently new homes rising by Frankford and Lehigh on a former scrap yard, with more to come closer to Somserset Street soon. Further up in Harrowgate, there are tons of warehouse conversions occurring, but they seem to mostly be flying under the radar.

At this point, I think nearly all of Lower North Philly is subject to development in the near-to-mid future. The furthest west I've seen new student housing rising recently is the 1700 block of N. Lambert Street (between 20th and 21st, Cecil B. Moore and Montgomery Avenues). I graduated from Temple last year, and even then most students would have (and probably still do) consider Gratz Street to be the western boundary of the student neighborhood. This line will continue to become blurred in the coming years. The student neighborhood is also moving northward. The 2200 block of North Broad (between Susquehanna Ave and Dauphin Street) is filling in with new apartments. As for non-student stuff, you should see what's been happening in the part of Cecil B. Moore/Templetown that isn't decidedly student or old-timer--the area between Broad, Ridge, Girard, and Master. Blocks that were entirely empty last year have been filling in with new housing. I can't tell if it's intended to be student housing or to capture the interest of people getting priced out of Francisville, but it does look very nice! I think the large PHA project will determine the future of just how far west development in North Philly will stretch. Finally, the former Botany 500 Building apparently has plans for office space and residential, but we'll see how that turns out.

Heading into the central part of North Philly, the North Station District Plan is progressing along, with the developer submitting proposals to the CDR for apartments at Broad and Indiana. Further up the road, the project intended on reviving the forlorn "Boner Forever" building should be starting up soon. Heading west of Broad, something that surprised me was seeing new, large, ultra-luxurious homes at 34th and Commissioner Street, just below Allegheny Avenue. I guess Allegheny West can cash in on its proximity to East Falls, the rest of Northwest Philly, and the nature trails that run through the area!
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
14,147 posts, read 9,043,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013 View Post
At this point, I think nearly all of Lower North Philly is subject to development in the near-to-mid future. The furthest west I've seen new student housing rising recently is the 1700 block of N. Lambert Street (between 20th and 21st, Cecil B. Moore and Montgomery Avenues). I graduated from Temple last year, and even then most students would have (and probably still do) consider Gratz Street to be the western boundary of the student neighborhood. This line will continue to become blurred in the coming years. The student neighborhood is also moving northward. The 2200 block of North Broad (between Susquehanna Ave and Dauphin Street) is filling in with new apartments. As for non-student stuff, you should see what's been happening in the part of Cecil B. Moore/Templetown that isn't decidedly student or old-timer--the area between Broad, Ridge, Girard, and Master. Blocks that were entirely empty last year have been filling in with new housing. I can't tell if it's intended to be student housing or to capture the interest of people getting priced out of Francisville, but it does look very nice! I think the large PHA project will determine the future of just how far west development in North Philly will stretch. Finally, the former Botany 500 Building apparently has plans for office space and residential, but we'll see how that turns out.

Heading into the central part of North Philly, the North Station District Plan is progressing along, with the developer submitting proposals to the CDR for apartments at Broad and Indiana. Further up the road, the project intended on reviving the forlorn "Boner Forever" building should be starting up soon. Heading west of Broad, something that surprised me was seeing new, large, ultra-luxurious homes at 34th and Commissioner Street, just below Allegheny Avenue. I guess Allegheny West can cash in on its proximity to East Falls, the rest of Northwest Philly, and the nature trails that run through the area!
Hoping to see concrete (pun intended) evidence of the North Station District Plan's progress real soon.

As for Temple, and I think I may have said something to you about this in one or another of our conversations IRL: Whenever it tries to run plays from the Penn Urban Revitalization Playbook, Temple botches the calls. That stadium is probably the highest-profile example of Temple's clumsiness, but I also think that its reliance on the student body as a "colonizing" force in the neighborhood to its west is qualitatively different and a far cry from Penn's incentives to faculty and staff to buy and settle in the neighborhood to its west. I will grant, however, that persuading the faculty and staff to live in that area would have been, and is still now, a tougher sell. Maybe the students will change that, but given that the neighborhood has its hackles raised, I'm not confident that will be the case.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia Pa
1,213 posts, read 954,485 times
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Hoping to see concrete (pun intended) evidence of the North Station District Plan's progress real soon.

As for Temple, and I think I may have said something to you about this in one or another of our conversations IRL: Whenever it tries to run plays from the Penn Urban Revitalization Playbook, Temple botches the calls. That stadium is probably the highest-profile example of Temple's clumsiness, but I also think that its reliance on the student body as a "colonizing" force in the neighborhood to its west is qualitatively different and a far cry from Penn's incentives to faculty and staff to buy and settle in the neighborhood to its west. I will grant, however, that persuading the faculty and staff to live in that area would have been, and is still now, a tougher sell. Maybe the students will change that, but given that the neighborhood has its hackles raised, I'm not confident that will be the case.
Yeah, it might take longer than it did with Penn in West Philly, but my wife is a senior administrator at Temple and I spent about six years in Northern Liberties around 2004-2010. I simply see no way the continued sprawl and devleopment will halt. It might not happen as seamlessly and as quickly as it did with U. City, but I'm pretty sure in the next 10 years (at absolute most), NL and Temple will connect straight through.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
7,736 posts, read 5,510,947 times
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It is fascinating that nearly all of north philly west of broad gained white residents. North Broad street between Temple and Center City has gentrified an incredible amount. I just want someone to buy that dumpy East Coast Gas Station and build something there. Francisville has some of the densest low-rise development being built in the city right now with over a dozen 5-9 story buildings. Tons of highrise development

I also disagree with the notion that "Penn's Plan" has ever really made a difference to many native Philadelphians versus benefiting new residents. That's something people that Penn like to say. Temple took a good step recently forming the new neighborhood improvement district.

Quote:
The North Central Special Services District will cover the area most heavily impacted by the university's off-campus students—bounded by Broad Street to the east, 18th Street to the west, Dauphin Street to the north and Oxford Street to the south.
Quote:
Like the University City District, which debuted in 1997 near the University of Pennsylvania and Drexel campuses, the North Central Special Services District is meant to draw residents, businesses and organizational partners to the table to enhance and support its surrounding area.
https://news.temple.edu/news/2019-04...vices-district

Personally I support gentrification and defer to the Philly Fed's report that said genetrification benefits poor Philadelphians in a lot of neighborhoods. I have no issue with the programs designed to keep people in their homes and would support further measures if there is a proper funding source. I also think to improve some neighborhoods it will need to have new blood injected into it. That means new residents and some residents leaving.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
14,147 posts, read 9,043,710 times
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Originally Posted by thedirtypirate View Post
It is fascinating that nearly all of north philly west of broad gained white residents. North Broad street between Temple and Center City has gentrified an incredible amount. I just want someone to buy that dumpy East Coast Gas Station and build something there. Francisville has some of the densest low-rise development being built in the city right now with over a dozen 5-9 story buildings. Tons of highrise development

I also disagree with the notion that "Penn's Plan" has ever really made a difference to many native Philadelphians versus benefiting new residents. That's something people that Penn like to say. Temple took a good step recently forming the new neighborhood improvement district.

https://news.temple.edu/news/2019-04...vices-district

Personally I support gentrification and defer to the Philly Fed's report that said genetrification benefits poor Philadelphians in a lot of neighborhoods. I have no issue with the programs designed to keep people in their homes and would support further measures if there is a proper funding source. I also think to improve some neighborhoods it will need to have new blood injected into it. That means new residents and some residents leaving.
5- to 9-story buildings in Francisville? I haven't seen any new buildings with more than four. I don't think the zoning permits taller without variances; I think the neighborhood's mostly RM-1 or RSA-5, both of which have the same height limits.

I worked in Penn's communications office while Judith Rodin and John Fry were writing the first version of the "Playbook," which is a term I coined. I don't think Penn's ever called it that. The goal there wasn't necessarily to improve conditions for longtime residents; it was to keep the neighborhood attractive for Penn faculty, staff and students, all of whom lived in it. My dinging of Temple is based on two big differences between Penn's approach and Temple's: Penn at least tried to gauge the sentiments of residents already living in the neighborhood, including those not affiliated with the university, in drawing up its plans for schools, neighborhood amenities, beefed-up safety patrols, and more. I know this firsthand, for I spoke fairly often with the then-head of the Spruce Hill Community Association, who was not a staffer or faculty member, through my handling media work for the Office of Community Relations at Penn as a news officer. (Both of us live in Germantown now, and we're connected on a project to revive community journalism here.)

The other big difference between Penn and Temple is: Penn had, and still has, a middle-class neighborhood immediately to its west, and contrary to what some believe, the blocks to the west of this neighborhood are more lower-middle-class than they are poor. By contrast, with the exception of Yorktown to its south, all of the neighborhoods surrounding Temple are predominantly low-income. But that doesn't mean they don't have interests and opinions Temple should have sounded out as it drew up its plans. I'll even bet that having a bunch of undergraduates as neighbors wasn't a high priority for the residents.

IMO the North Central Philadelphia SSD is a day late and a dollar short as far as addressing the interests of the neighbors is concerned.

Oh, and: I'm a "two cheers for gentrification" guy. I'll elaborate if you want.
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Old 05-02-2019, 04:59 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
938 posts, read 446,040 times
Reputation: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013 View Post




I was in Strawberry Mansion about a month ago, walking up N. 31st Street, across Oxford, and onto 33rd Street. I didn't see one black person until I walked north of Cecil B. Moore. Strawberry Mansion has been notorious for crime in recent history.
I like how you make that sound like a good thing.
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