Should the Coyotes move to Mesa? (Phoenix, Tucson: 2014, title, MLS)

[BIG CATS]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I feel the NHL can and has done well in the sunbelt. Currently Tampa Bay is 5th in average attendance with 19,092 while the NY Islanders are 29th in average attendance with 12,188 (77.1% capacity) and New Jersey is 27th in average attendance with 13,278 (75.3% capacity). The Coyotes are actually doing better than both the Islanders and Devils in average attendance this year.

But wait both the Islanders and Devils most be located in the southern United States and have very small, teeny, tiny fanbases.

Its all about bandwagon fans, man. It truly is. The Lightning are popular right now thanks to a Stanley Cup appearance last year. And most of that stadium is opposing fans, especially during the winter snowbird months. Take away those fans and you have a half-full stadium. And the Isles, despite their relative recent success, have sucked for so long that people seemingly lost hope in them. The Yotes' attendance is no doubt bolstered by snowbirds, too. Go to any game against the Wild, Canadiens, Flames, Blackhawks, Red Wings (before they changed to the Eastern Conference), etc, and youll notice almost half the stadium is opposing fans. Ive seen early season Coyote games versus, say, the Stars, and there was maybe 7K in attendance. The Yote attendance numbers were the laughing stock of the NHL for a long time. As for the Devils, its seems like after they built their new stadium (Prudential?), their attendance slowly dropped off. Not sure why that is.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

Its all about bandwagon fans, man. It truly is.

Of course winning is a "cure-all" for attendance woes, just look at the Blackhawks. Here's their average attendance rankings out of the 30 NHL teams from 2000 to 2009:

2000-2001 24th
2001-2002 23rd
2003-2003 24th
2003-2004 27th
2004-2005 Canceled Season
2005-2006 29th
2006-2007 29th
2007-2008 19th
2008-2009 1st

And this is one of the "Original Six". I was just pointing out even cold weather teams with huge fan bases or potentially huge fan bases have had horrible attendance averages. The one big problem is, it is mathematically impossible for every team to be good every year, at most all 30 teams would be tied at .500.

You will always have huge visiting team support from transplants who have moved to the sunbelt from those cold weather places. Heck I've worn my Blackhawks jersey to Yotes games before. If Vegas ever gets a team, it will be the same way.

[BIG CATS]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

Of course winning is a "cure-all" for attendance woes, just look at the Blackhawks. Here's their average attendance rankings out of the 30 NHL teams from 2000 to 2009:

2000-2001 24th
2001-2002 23rd
2003-2003 24th
2003-2004 27th
2004-2005 Canceled Season
2005-2006 29th
2006-2007 29th
2007-2008 19th
2008-2009 1st

And this is one of the "Original Six". I was just pointing out even cold weather teams with huge fan bases or potentially huge fan bases have had horrible attendance averages. The one big problem is, it is mathematically impossible for every team to be good every year, at most all 30 teams would be tied at .500.

You will always have huge visiting team support from transplants who have moved to the sunbelt from those cold weather places. Heck I've worn my Blackhawks jersey to Yotes games before. If Vegas ever gets a team, it will be the same way.

I was in Chicago to witness the rise of the bandwagon plague. I remember going to games as late as 2007/2008 and there was noone in attendance. Most of the fans were for opposing teams, especially when MN or DET were in town, it was sad. But, with that being said, fans were protesting the organization, in particular Bill Wirtz. He raised concession prices, parking prices, ticket prices, blacked out home games, and wasnt buying any talent. Once he died and his brother Rocky took over, they brought in talent like Toews and Kane, etc, and put the games back on TV, and thus the dynasty was born. Dale Tallon was let loose to buy and acquire new players, and that was that. Almost overnight the United Center was packed and has remainded that way since (for the most part).

As for cold weather teams having bad attendance? Id have to say youre wrong. One only needs to look at the Wings, Habs, Leafs, Wild, Flames, Oilers, etc, to see sellout seasons year after year after year. Sure there are some like the Islanders that have suffering attendance, but a new stadium next year and a few good seasons will turn that all around.

[JGMotorsport64]

Somehow every topic reverts to Chicago bleh...


The Coyotes attenance suffers from a stadium location that we have all established.

EV has 1.3 million residents
WV has approx 700k residents
Phoenix has 1.5 million residents.

On a weeknight it can take as long as (because I've experienced this) 1hr 45 min to get to Glendale from Tempe.

Who in their right mind wants to watch the Coyotes lose, in a place that doesn't want them and be in their car for 2hrs on a weeknight. Much less, who wants to stay at Westgate and eat at a restaurant that is right next to their homes?
Buffalo Wild Wings, Gorden Bierch, Yardhouse, Opa! etc. That location is such a flop.

The reason is simple.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

As for cold weather teams having bad attendance? Id have to say youre wrong. One only needs to look at the Wings, Habs, Leafs, Wild, Flames, Oilers, etc, to see sellout seasons year after year after year. Sure there are some like the Islanders that have suffering attendance, but a new stadium next year and a few good seasons will turn that all around.

I never said all cold weather teams have bad attendances, I realize the majority have great attendance figures. I'm just pointing out even teams like Pittsburgh and Boston have had bad average attendance years in the past.

[Ztonyg]

Remember though that Glendale was the 2nd choice for both the Coyotes and the Cardinals.

The Coyotes had planned on building the arena at the "Big Corner of Scottsdale and McDowell in Beautiful Scottsdale" (sorry, I had to use the old Bill Heard Chevrolet jingle).

Scottsdale wanted nothing to do with the traffic or the financing of the arena and balked at the project. For a while the area was an eyesore in Scottsdale until Skysong came along.

In retrospect, Scottsdale / McDowell was a bad location for an arena too (due to the fact that the freeways were some distance away (202 was 2 miles S and 101 was 3 miles E).

The best location for the arena would've been where they wanted to place the Cardinals stadium (in the area of Tempe where the First Solar building is). Plus, ASU may have signed on to be a tenant.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

Somehow every topic reverts to Chicago bleh....

Yes that gets really annoying.

[BIG CATS]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

Somehow every topic reverts to Chicago bleh...

We're talking NHL attendance records and the Hawks were brought up. Thats why.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

The Coyotes attenance suffers from a stadium location that we have all established.

EV has 1.3 million residents
WV has approx 700k residents
Phoenix has 1.5 million residents.

On a weeknight it can take as long as (because I've experienced this) 1hr 45 min to get to Glendale from Tempe.

Who in their right mind wants to watch the Coyotes lose, in a place that doesn't want them and be in their car for 2hrs on a weeknight. Much less, who wants to stay at Westgate and eat at a restaurant that is right next to their homes?
Buffalo Wild Wings, Gorden Bierch, Yardhouse, Opa! etc. That location is such a flop.

The reason is simple.

Part of the reason why this location was chosen to begin with was all the cries from the west Valley that they don't get anything out their way. The sports complex & Westgate was basically built in the middle of farm fields (stupid move to begin with) ... and many promises were made to develop the land around it. Look what happened in reality: many of the plans fell through, there is hit & miss development at best, much of the land around it sits vacant, and now taxpayers are on the hook for bailing out this entire boondoggle.

I agree with you wholeheartedly: who in the hell wants to drive a long way to see a hockey game or a concert when these things can & should be more centrally located? The last time I went to that arena was over five years ago to see Paul McCartney. The concert was good, but the drive over there was ridiculously long, and the parking situation was a nightmare. When there's a concert downtown (or perhaps a Diamondbacks or Suns game), it's much easier to take the light rail and avoid the traffic/parking mess ... whereas there is no viable transit option to Westgate. There again is the problem with lack of established infrastructure!

Also, the team's change of identity (Arizona Coyotes) was another idiotic move. Why does everything around here have to be named after Arizona instead of the major core city which should be represented??? Phoenix has very little identity thanks to all this "Arizona" nonsense. Very few other metro areas with pro sports teams seem to have this issue (other than perhaps Denver).

[asufan]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Also, the team's change of identity (Arizona Coyotes) was another idiotic move. Why does everything around here have to be named after Arizona instead of the major core city which should be represented??? Phoenix has very little identity thanks to all this "Arizona" nonsense. Very few other metro areas with pro sports teams seem to have this issue (other than perhaps Denver).

Agreed. Minneapolis is the other city left out of their sports team names. At least in that case Minneapolis only has about 400,000 residents, a bit more than St Paul so it makes more sense. I think it has more to do with marketing to the rest of the state that it is the state's team but it sounds weird.