You think its bad for PAT now, it's about to get A LOT WORSE! (Butler: sale, bus)

[gg]

Originally Posted by raubre

I'm not sure why you brought up Mr. Smalls since they are still open, but Mr. Smalls shouldn't really count. I think they are only open during concerts.

What do you mean? They had to get a loan from a friend. Yes, they stayed in business, but had to get a loan which shows the business climate they have to deal with. They hung on for now, but who knows how long? Bottom line is a tax on one industry to prop up another is wrong. It should be spread out to all, not a few. 10%????? That was insane! Now they give the struggling bar owners a break at 7%. Oh gee thanks you idiots!

Oh, PAT still is doing very poorly. What about all the routes being cut? The huge tax on bar/restaurant business wasn't even enough.

The point I am making is taxing your way out of things doesn't work. It costs jobs and promotes a bad environment. The amount of waste in a company like PAT would be like government. One heck of a lot of waste! Drivers were making way too much money. Not sure how much the mechanics are making and administration? Whatever it is, I am sure it is like the driver situation Paid too much and they can't continue doing business.

What about other little things that might be going on in smaller bars and restaurants due to this upsetting tax? What about the fact that it is a cash business and bar owners might skim more because they are being treated so poorly in Allegheny County? Do you think there are a few owners that don't show all the cash sales to keep afloat? Heck it is almost justifiable if you ask me. Glad I am not in the business anymore. I think it is too upsetting and a very poor climate. Why is it a poor climate? PAT!

[squarian]

On the bright side, the EIA Short-Term Energy Outlook report for Jan shows gasoline prices staying basically flat for most of the rest of the year.

So for those who can afford to own and operate a car, don't mind paying high parking fees, or spending hours uselessly locked in traffic, take comfort! Your gas will only cost $3.55/gal!

We don't need no stinkin buses.

[gg]

Originally Posted by squarian

We don't need no stinkin buses.

I do think carpooling and people getting together for van rides to and from work would be better for our area. Buses just don't seem to be very good in our area.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

I do think carpooling and people getting together for van rides to and from work would be better for our area. Buses just don't seem to be very good in our area.

Carpooling? I remember carpooling. Back in '78 or '79, right? One of Carter's better ideas. Like putting on a sweater and turning down the thermostat.

Gosh, that really takes me back. Thanks for the nostalgia blast, curtis.

Edit: It was '79.

[raubre]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

What do you mean? They had to get a loan from a friend. Yes, they stayed in business, but had to get a loan which shows the business climate they have to deal with. They hung on for now, but who knows how long? Bottom line is a tax on one industry to prop up another is wrong. It should be spread out to all, not a few. 10%????? That was insane! Now they give the struggling bar owners a break at 7%. Oh gee thanks you idiots!

I understand that you didn't bring up Mr. Smalls, my bad. I don't know why the Tribune used them in thier article.

Mr. Smalls is a concert venue that has a bar inside. Unlike bars (note I said "bars" because Mr. Smalls is NOT a bar, just because it has one doesn't make it one) the people who go there are there to see a band, not hang out at the bar.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by UKyank

Though that's through July 2010, i don't know that the number is up to now.

So according to the article, 40 out of about 2000 bars in Allegheny County between January 2008 and April 2010 closed down with delinquent drink taxes. Some undetermined number of those would likely have closed anyway (particularly given that the recession hit our area during that time--one delinquent bar owner reported revenues dropping in half in 2008), and conversely their closure presumably created additional demand to support other local bars.

So how many jobs were actually lost to the drink tax? I still don't know, but whatever number you could plausibly deduce from that article would be tiny in comparison to the number of people whose jobs depend in one way or another on PAT.

[Copanut]

But why a drink tax? Why not tax McDonalds, they serve more people and cause more health problems.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by squarian

It is no more likely that Harrisburg will come to the rescue with more money. It is conceivable, I suppose, that both houses of the Gen Ass might come to be controlled by a transit-friendly party (not to name any party specifically) which would then insist, even over a governor's veto, on increasing, restoring or refunding Allegheny Co's share of transportation money. This seems about as likely to me as the chance of Ron Paul occupying the Oval Office next year.

Fortunately that's not really a necessary scenario. PAT automatically gets a certain portion of the state's dedicated transportation fund. In fact that is why the I-80 toll falling through led to an automatic cut in PAT's funding.

Conversely, that means any measures to add back revenues to the state's dedicated transportation fund will automatically restore some of PAT's funding, unless those measures include a change to how the state's transportation funds are allocated such that PAT, or transit in general, is actively excluded.

Of course that is a big "unless": Corbett has proposed shifting funds from transit to roads before, and he will likely do it again in his upcoming transportation proposal. However, the state legislature tends to be more timid about upsetting these long-standing deals.

So, my hope is that (A) the legislature will add at least a bit more revenue than Corbett proposes to the transportation fund, even if not as much as Corbett's commission proposed; and (B) the legislature will at most make minor changes to the allocation of funds such that PAT gets most of its share of those revenue increases.

That's still a far from certain outcome, but at least it isn't totally impossible.

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

So according to the article, 40 out of about 2000 bars in Allegheny County between January 2008 and April 2010 closed down with delinquent drink taxes. Some undetermined number of those would likely have closed anyway (particularly given that the recession hit our area during that time--one delinquent bar owner reported revenues dropping in half in 2008), and conversely their closure presumably created additional demand to support other local bars.

So how many jobs were actually lost to the drink tax? I still don't know, but whatever number you could plausibly deduce from that article would be tiny in comparison to the number of people whose jobs depend in one way or another on PAT.

I can't believe that the adjective of only would be used to describe 40 local businesses being put out of business by a new tax dreamed up by the county. Why not an additional 10% tax on jewelry sales, or car sales, or musical instruments, or tools, etc, etc.....I mean if the effect would be to put only a small percentage of such stores out of business compared to the total, then PATs budget problems would be solved in no time but I'm guessing you wouldn't support an expansion of the drink tax to all other merchandise sales?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Copanut

But why a drink tax?

The wonk argument is that sales of alcohol in public places makes more work for local transit, and also that drinking alcohol isn't a necessity so it is a "voluntary" tax, and also that drinking alcohol in public places likely has other negative externalities (at least past one drink or so).

The political argument is that "sin taxes" are a relatively easy sell. And of course there are such "sin taxes" on other things too--and for all I know fast food taxes will in fact come along at some point.