Houses as cute as a button--and very historic, too! (Pittsburgh: apartments, renter)

[The King of Um]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

Elliott and West End are about as walkable as Spring Garden and Spring Hill. Some of the hills are steep, but there are sidewalks. You get a good workout!

Don't forget that the West End includes the residential neighborhood up on the hill by West End Park, which includes houses like these:

Those are some pretty awesome 19th century frame houses, definitely very historic. Like the lower North Side, would you say that the West End is making a comeback? I want to buy in an area that's improving, where home values are appreciating, not remaining stagnant, or worse, declining. Over the past several months, I've seen numerous houses in Elliott that interest me, but whenever I ask anyone about the area, they always tell me that it has no future. In your estimation is there any validity to this?

[The King of Um]

Originally Posted by eschaton

It takes two to tango. Remember the vast majority of people in public housing are single mothers, who aren't exactly known for being crime bosses. Probably no more than 10% of project residents are troublemakers - the rest are trying the best they can. The often racist, always over-the-top responses by a community when these displaced people move in contributes as much, if not more, to the decline which follows the introduction of Section 8 rentals into an area.



It's commonly thought of as a project, but it's actually a Section 8 rental complex.



You overlooked the lower West End neighborhoods - Westwood, Oakwood, Ridgemont, and East Carnegie. The former two are considered the gems of the (city part of the) West End. They aren't my cup of tea, of course.



Elliott's biggest issue, IMHO, is the lack of any real business district. There's a significant area in the core of the neighborhood zoned commercial, but you'd never know it going down the main thoroughfare. If it had a business district to speak of, I think it could improve to maybe the desirability of Beechview or something overnight.

The West End Village is different. What's left of it is great. It was originally a small, brick Victorian neighborhood in and around the core (which was around four blocks). Sadly, around half of it was demolished. It also has very poor pedestrian linkage to downtown or South Side, despite being nearby.

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned Section 8, because that's another thing we need to rid ourselves of. There are far too many decaying Section 8 houses in Pittsburgh. Many of these dwellings, I am sure, are from the 19th century. If the historically-significant ones were renovated, they'd be beautiful again. However, the greedy landlords won't sell them (that would be a loss of income), won't fix them up (for obvious reasons), and the moocher Section 8 welfare/foodstamp-type tenants continually trash them, so the end result is a home that falls into disrepair (only the most basic of repairs are made).

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

Those are some pretty awesome 19th century frame houses, definitely very historic. Like the lower North Side, would you say that the West End is making a comeback? I want to buy in an area that's improving, where home values are appreciating, not remaining stagnant, or worse, declining. Over the past several months, I've seen numerous houses in Elliott that interest me, but whenever I ask anyone about the area, they always tell me that it has no future. In your estimation is there any validity to this?

The West End neighborhoods are not making a comeback. I'm not even sure that they are on the verge of a comeback. I think they will continue to decline. That's why they interest me, though. Put simply, you're not going to find cheap historic homes in a gentrifying area. The opportunities are in places others do not dare to go.

[The King of Um]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

The West End neighborhoods are not making a comeback. I'm not even sure that they are on the verge of a comeback. I think they will continue to decline. That's why they interest me, though. Put simply, you're not going to find cheap historic homes in a gentrifying area. The opportunities are in places others do not dare to go.

But you can still find cheap, historic homes in East Deutschtown, Spring Hill, Spring Garden, and Troy Hill, right? And aren't these areas at the very beginning of gentrification? In my opinion, these neighborhoods are too convenient (especially East Deutschtown), and too architecturally interesting, to not improve. I'm new, though, so I don't know that much.

So far I don't mind the hill, even as someone who walks everywhere. If I had a car, I don't think it would bother me in the least. So, I don't think Spring Hill's location as a hilltop neighborhood is going to hold it back from improvement.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

But you can still find cheap, historic homes in East Deutschtown, Spring Hill, Spring Garden, and Troy Hill, right? And aren't these areas at the very beginning of gentrification? In my opinion, those neighborhoods are too convenient (especially East Deutschtown), and too architecturally interesting, to not improve. I'm new, though, so I don't know that much.

So far I don't mind the hill, even as someone who walks everywhere. If I had a car, I don't think it would bother me in the least. So, I don't think Spring Hill's location as a hilltop neighborhood is going to hold it back.

I think much of the lower North Side is going to gentrify rapidly. However, the prospects for Spring Garden and Spring Hill seem rather dim. The housing is in horrible condition, for the most part, and only a few stand a chance of being properly restored. Troy Hill will only get better. It never fell too far. East Deutschtown is already half demolished, and half of the surviving housing is falling apart.

I think we're already seeing rapid price inflation in most lower North Side neighborhoods, in anticipation of gentrification that may or may not come to all neighborhoods. It's getting difficult to find a decent house for a decent price. Exceptions would be the upper North Side neighborhoods, which are expected to decline or remain stagnant. Observatory Hill and Brighton Heights may continue to be stable.

[The King of Um]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

I think the North Side in general is going to gentrify rapidly. However, the prospects for Spring Garden and Spring Hill seem rather dim. Troy Hill will only get better. I think we're already seeing rapid price inflation in most North Side neighborhoods, in anticipation of gentrification that may or may not come to all neighborhoods. It's getting difficult to find a decent house for a decent price. I don't feel that way about the West End at all. My opinion is, if you can get the house cheap enough, you can't lose.

When I was shopping with my former agent, we went to Observatory Hill, and I saw some gorgeous (and huge) Victorians and Edwardians up there. The neighborhood, though, seemed kind of far from everything. I wonder what the future holds for OH? Hopefully its location won't hinder its redevelopment. It would be a shame if that area declined further. Some of those houses up there are just as grand as those in Shadyside or Friendship.

[The King of Um]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

I think much of the lower North Side is going to gentrify rapidly. However, the prospects for Spring Garden and Spring Hill seem rather dim. The housing is in horrible condition, for the most part, and only a few stand a chance of being properly restored. Troy Hill will only get better. It never fell too far. East Deutschtown is already half demolished, and half of the surviving housing is falling apart.

I think we're already seeing rapid price inflation in most lower North Side neighborhoods, in anticipation of gentrification that may or may not come to all neighborhoods. It's getting difficult to find a decent house for a decent price. Exceptions would be the upper North Side neighborhoods, which are expected to decline or remain stagnant. Observatory Hill and Brighton Heights may continue to be stable.

So, do you think East Deutschtown has a future? I ask because you seem more knowledgeable than anyone else about the lower North Side. Also, it's my idea neighborhood to buy in.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned Section 8, because that's another thing we need to rid ourselves of. There are far too many decaying Section 8 houses in Pittsburgh. Many of these dwellings, I am sure, are from the 19th century. If the historically-significant ones were renovated, they'd be beautiful again. However, the greedy landlords won't sell them (that would be a loss of income), won't fix them up (for obvious reasons), and the moocher Section 8 welfare/foodstamp-type tenants continually trash them, so the end result is a home that falls into disrepair (only the most basic of repairs are made).

The poor people have to live someplace.

Regardless of how wealthy the city is, or becomes, people will still be needed to mow the lawns, mop the floors and man the take out windows at fast food joints, among other entry level positions.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

I think much of the lower North Side is going to gentrify rapidly. However, the prospects for Spring Garden and Spring Hill seem rather dim. The housing is in horrible condition, for the most part, and only a few stand a chance of being properly restored. Troy Hill will only get better. It never fell too far. East Deutschtown is already half demolished, and half of the surviving housing is falling apart..

The streets in the eastern stretches of Spring Hill- Romanoff, Rockledge, Harbor- all seem to be in pretty decent shape. I'd agree that Deutchtown east of I279, the western sector of Spring Hill, Spring Garden and City View are all pretty much a mess.

[PreservationPioneer]

I think if enough preservation-minded people, who are willing to restore old homes, move into East Deutschtown and Spring Garden, they will have something of a future. Perhaps investors will seize the remaining properties and fix them up to a marginal standard, and the city will halt demolitions in the area. That's being optimistic.

I think if the cycle of decay and demolition continues, aside from a few beautiful houses that were restored and spared, the neighborhoods will look like California Kirkbride in a decade or two. My goal is to get an awesome old house in one of these old neighborhoods, before they are all relegated to the dust bin of history.