what can be done to reduce poverty in America? (death, school, financial)

[pollyrobin]

Originally Posted by Bideshi

And if you never get sick without health insurance...

Most folks that are really poor get medicaid - which means
they don't pay for their health care. They probably have
access to more health care than most middle class folks.

Just maybe, if folks grew their own veggies, and were
more in tune with what makes one healthy; diet, exercise,
a busy body and mind, they wouldn't be harping on getting
sick. Mind you, I know there a lot of folks with real illnesses. I'm talking about the rest of us - we all can't be that sick.

Don't forget your 8 glasses of water a day - get it from the tap or well - your wasting your money on bottled water Forget that exercise class - go dig a hole and plant something

And turn off that TV - with all the medical/pharmaceutical commercials brainwashing you into illness

[pollyrobin]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

Why is society expected to subsidize your personal decision?

Short, to the point, and so so true

[chielgirl]

Originally Posted by ambient

If nobody ever had any children, then what do you think would happen to this country? A bunch of increasingly decrepit, old people who consume services but are no longer able to work effectively...and who exactly is going to take on the responsibility of productivity and maintaining the tax basis necessary to keep society running for you in your twilight years? Younger people.

You can choose to unnaturally sterilize yourself, but you're only able to do so and expect to maintain your standard of living because others will have children who will grow up to be the doctors who take care of you, the workers who maintain your roads, the soldiers who defend you, and the myriad of other people who will provide all of the services you will need to consume in order to survive.

So whose decision will have been more "selfish" - yours or theirs?

I don't believe that people should breed to take care of other generations. You seem to think otherwise.
I have very nice plans for my twilight years that don't include your children.

Most people's kids will be couch potatoes or hang out on the internet, like us. Soldiers do not defend me, they defend corporate interests.

I'm selfish because I chose not to breed? Really.
My carbon footprint is very small; I can take care of myself financially, physically and emotionally - from the looks of the world, most parents can't or won't step up.
They breed and buy tons of non-degradable plastic garbage with no thought to the child, society or the future.

[pollyrobin]

Originally Posted by actonbell

'have' or to, 'not to have' children is a personal issue and not one that any government entity should ever have the power to control. Also, it can not be something that a financial situation should dictate.

Talk about a selfish way to justify having a family

It's easy for us in the West to say that, with just 300,000M
people. Now try repeating what you just said with a population over a Billion

If one doesn't take into account their financial situation before having children, they are short changing their
children, are irresponsible, and treading on those that do things with forethought. You have a maternal and moral duty to provide for your own -
Pssst - it begins with YOU.

Otherwise, you are just a burden to the entire village

[pollyrobin]

Originally Posted by ambient

If nobody ever had any children, then what do you think would happen to this country?

Ask yourself this: What if everyone who had children, planned them, could pay for them, and were stable parents.
What do you think would happen to this country

You do know, a major reasons folks had large
families in previous generations - they were FARMERS
who needed the entire group to work the land.

[Zimbochick]

Originally Posted by ambient

So whose decision will have been more "selfish" - yours or theirs?

I have to disagree with this. Having children is the ultimate in selfish behavior. You have children because you want them. You want to have something that is your DNA, a part of you to continue the genes. Having a baby is not providing a gift to makind, but a gift to yourself.

I just wish more people would give it serious thought before having a family. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent, and I think most people know that about themselves. There is a lot of societal pressure to have children. People that choose not to are more often than not assumed to not be able to have children. When did not wanting children become this big deal?

[Zimbochick]

Originally Posted by pollyrobin

Ask yourself this: What if everyone who had children, planned them, could pay for them, and were stable parents.
What do you think would happen to this country

You do know, a major reasons folks had large
families in previous generations - they were FARMERS
who needed the entire group to work the land.

And they did not all survive to adulthood.

[ambient]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

I don't believe that people should breed to take care of other generations. You seem to think otherwise.
I have very nice plans for my twilight years that don't include your children.

But all of your plans in your twilight years will involve consuming services provided, by and large, by younger generations - unless you're some sort of an "off the grid" survivalist. So again, those of us who will have children will effectively be ensuring YOUR care when you are old.

Originally Posted by chielgirl

Most people's kids will be couch potatoes or hang out on the internet, like us. Soldiers do not defend me, they defend corporate interests.

Most people who have kids are not "octomoms" on welfare, and most peoples' kids are not just couch potatoes. Look around you at everything that has been built in society that YOU benefit from - it was created by peoples' children, and you seem to take it all for granted.

Originally Posted by chielgirl

I'm selfish because I chose not to breed? Really.
My carbon footprint is very small; I can take care of myself financially, physically and emotionally - from the looks of the world, most parents can't or won't step up.
They breed and buy tons of non-degradable plastic garbage with no thought to the child, society or the future.

You sit there and pat yourself on the back for your "small footprint" and wag your finger at the rest of us who are not as "advanced" as you - all while consuming services that are only capable because the rest of us actually raise kids to provide them for you. How is that NOT selfish and hypocritical?

[Ellis Bell]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

Sad story.
If someone wants to breed, fine, so long as they can support the child physically, financially and emotionally.
Why is society expected to subsidize your personal decision?
I pay school taxes although I never used a public school and don't complain about education, after all, lack of education costs society much more.

And while I have very strong feelings, I don't see where I've tried to force anyone to do anything that they don't want to do; nor should they expect taxpayers or the government (same thing) to subsidize their choices.
It has to be a decision made with financial considerations; if the person can't make them, perhaps the government needs to step in.
What benefit is unfettered breeding?
The heart wants? Sorry, that's a cop out for irresponsible behavior.
I want a lot of things but know that some things I want may not be good for me and I have to be adult enough to deal with that.
I'm no longer a 14 year old with raging hormones.

You have to have a license to drive and to fish; any mammal can breed.
Unfortunately, most do.

The heart wants, what the heart wants. You're heart of desires is to not have children. So in reversal order of argument...

If the government became in control of those decisions, says, you must populate. Now the decision is not of your own, but that of a law, in which you must now follow. Would that not p*ss you off just a bit?

[ambient]

Originally Posted by Zimbochick

I have to disagree with this. Having children is the ultimate in selfish behavior. You have children because you want them. You want to have something that is your DNA, a part of you to continue the genes. Having a baby is not providing a gift to makind, but a gift to yourself.

I just wish more people would give it serious thought before having a family. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent, and I think most people know that about themselves. There is a lot of societal pressure to have children. People that choose not to are more often than not assumed to not be able to have children. When did not wanting children become this big deal?

Yes, in one sense, of course it is selfish. And your results will highly vary depending on the kind of people involved. But in the best sense - when you have responsible, loving parents - it's actually highly selfless as well. And it's because of something called love, which I notice that you seem to ignore...

My parents took excellent care of my sister and me. Yes, they chose to have us; it was a "selfish" decision. They invested a ton in us - both personally and financially. They supported us, disciplined us, and loved us. They celebrated with us in good times and consoled us in bad times. They raised us to be whatever we wanted to be; they positioned us to go out into the world and chart our own path. And I did not come from a wealthy family; I saw time and again how my parents sacrificed for me. Their expression of love was and is selfless.

I'm now grown and married to a woman I love dearly. We don't have kids, and I don't know when and if we will... but I can now understand on a different personal level than ever before that having kids can be both "selfish" and "selfless" at the same time - if you have love.

Now, my parents could have taken all of that time and money over decades and just invested it in themselves - they could have lived it up. Or they could have spent a lot of time concerning themselves with their "small footprint". So tell me again: is it always so much more selfish to have kids than not to have them? Are you really going to sit there and effectively pass judgment on all families, including ones like mine, for being so "selfish" as to have kids?