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A heartbeat can be detected as early as 6 weeks gestation, and by 10 weeks I had seen my babies kicking around on the ultrasound image. By 18 weeks, I had felt them kicking and could tell the sex on ultrasound. I can say for sure that once I heard the heartbeat and carried the ultrasound pictures with me so I could show them off to all I knew, they were without a doubt fully human.
What you are describing is the process of emotional bonding that occurs in the vast majority of women who are carrying WANTED fetuses. If you can imagine the circumstance at all, try guessing what sort of meaning those signs would convey to a woman being compelled to carry an UNWANTED fetus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
Countries such as Spain for example, allow abortion up until something like 24 weeks. That means the baby who is aborted had a beating heart, was kicking up a storm, the sex could be seen, and had a chance of living outside the womb, has arms, legs, organs, eyes, nose, mouth a brain, etc. It is a human, and in my mind, to abort is murder.
Your mind speaks to you. If the case were so open and shut, that same mind would speak to others. It does in some cases, and in many others, it does not.
How about women who have heard a heartbeat, felt the baby kick, and/or know the sex of the baby? Does that not make them a human being? If not, when are they, in your mind, a human being?
I've heard the heartbeat, felt a baby kick inside of me, and the works. I still support abortion. Just because you feel it is "immoral," doesn't make it wrong or right. Currently, the legal system does not claim a fetus as a human with rights. Why should it? You can say "oh, there's a heartbeat" or "Oh, it's moving" but, not to sound harsh, my cats have heartbeats and move... and they don't have rights.
People who WANT to have a child will claim the fetus as a baby, name it, and buy clothes for it. People who do NOT want to have a child are not going to see it as a human. They will see it as a parasite. Force them to bear it, then give it away instead of an abortion... and you will find a woman/girl who doesn't WANT to take care of herself because the "parasite" will just ruin her anyways.
Here's a thought. If a girl does NOT want to give birth to that "baby" and the government forces it upon her... what's to stop her from grabbing a metal coat hanger... and trying to do it herself? Isn't that a lot more dangerous?
Instead of riddling the world with UNWANTED CHILDREN (imagine how they're going to feel when they find THAT out), instead of FORCING a woman to go through a STRENUOUS and DANGEROUS task of labor against her will, let them take a pill or be suctioned out. No matter what people say or think, unprotected and premarital intercourse WILL happen.
You can't force what you feel or believe onto a society. You can't make this a religious debate because separation of church and state. What this entire debate boils down to: People who want to force their thoughts, opinions, feelings, and beliefs about what's "moral" and "just" onto a group of people who do not, and are not, prepared to change everything about their life in order to bring another life into the world.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
A heartbeat can be detected as early as 6 weeks gestation, and by 10 weeks I had seen my babies kicking around on the ultrasound image. By 18 weeks, I had felt them kicking and could tell the sex on ultrasound. I can say for sure that once I heard the heartbeat and carried the ultrasound pictures with me so I could show them off to all I knew, they were without a doubt fully human.
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What does 6, 10, or 18 week intervals have to do with a fertilized egg having a heartbeat or other human qualities?
I stiil say the key question is whether a fertilized egg is a human being, I don't believe it is.
What you are describing is the process of emotional bonding that occurs in the vast majority of women who are carrying WANTED fetuses. If you can imagine the circumstance at all, try guessing what sort of meaning those signs would convey to a woman being compelled to carry an UNWANTED fetus.
Your mind speaks to you. If the case were so open and shut, that same mind would speak to others. It does in some cases, and in many others, it does not.
Umm, no, in fact I am not describing "emotional bonding." I am stating, under no uncertain terms, scientific study: one is able to listen to the heartbeat of an unborn child as early as 6 weeks gestation. One can also see, very obviously on ultrasound at about 10 weeks, a baby's head, arm and leg buds and a body, all kicking around.
There is an enormous amount of science available regarding an egg after fertilization, what the various stages are, and just how human it all is. Perhaps you should look into it rather than just dismiss what you read on forums such as this one. I'd say a heartbeat indicates life, and I think science backs me. Facts are stubborn things, my friend, look it up.
Umm, no, in fact I am not describing "emotional bonding." I am stating, under no uncertain terms, scientific study: one is able to listen to the heartbeat of an unborn child as early as 6 weeks gestation. One can also see, very obviously on ultrasound at about 10 weeks, a baby's head, arm and leg buds and a body, all kicking around.
You ignore completely the point that was made. No one disputes the general timeline of fetal development. It applies equally to those who are experiencing a wanted versus an unwanted pregnancy. Your emotional response to that experience is common among those in Group-A. Group-B tends to have a different set of responses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
There is an enormous amount of science available regarding an egg after fertilization, what the various stages are, and just how human it all is. Perhaps you should look into it rather than just dismiss what you read on forums such as this one.
Yes, and the bulk of that science has been around for decades. As I have been as well, there has been ample time for me to have sifted through it, thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alias
I'd say a heartbeat indicates life, and I think science backs me. Facts are stubborn things, my friend, look it up.
You may think and say whatever you'd like, and apparently do, and that is all quite fine for you. But you do not have science to back you up. The original egg and sperm were alive and were human, and so are the hair and fingernails that we routinely discard for our own convenience. The onset of an embryonic heartbeat, which would be typical at four weeks when the embryo is about a quarter-inch long, changes none of that. It is nothing more than one milestone in the development of one particular organ of your personal choosing. You will need to take significant further steps before making high and sweeping claims on behalf of the species.
The implication that anyone dealing with an unwanted/unplanned for pregnancy is irresponsible is in itself misleading and irresponsible.
I think abstinence is a fantasy because I see nothing wrong with birth control, and abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control so it's a fact that unwanted pregnancies will occur among responsible people.
Unplanned?
Who says there has to be a plan before people take responsibility for their actions?
If I get a speeding ticket because I was wasn't paying attention, how am I not responsible for speeding?
"I think abstinence is a fantasy beacuse I see nothing wrong with birth control, and abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control so it's a fact that unwanted pregnancies will occur among responsible people."
I believe there is nothing wrong with driving a car and speedometers are not always 100% accurate, does that mean people are not responsible for speeding?
How about the responsibility to operate your vehicle in a safe manner at all times?
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