Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Berkeley is implementing policy to take race into account in admissions.
So the YR's are holding a bake sale with prices set higher for whites and lower for blacks, native Americans and minorities (Indians were left off).
So, while University of Michigan has already fought their battles on this, the YR's at Berkeley are carrying the flag...
Problem is they are right to oppose the act, but not for the reasons they think.
Using race alone as a criteria, diminishes the accomplishments of minorities across the board.
Using SES is a more valid criteria to use for admissions.
However, remember, the so-called affirmitive action may get you in the door at a Tier-1 school, but your hard work and studying keep you there. So even if you supposedly got in because of affirmative action and graduate, does that mean you should've been there all along?
Are the bake sale item price deifferences according to race, equivalent to the price differences in tuition according to race? Or did they just decide to make things different in cost according to race, just to stir intellectual thought about fairness?
Are the bake sale item price deifferences according to race, equivalent to the price differences in tuition according to race? Or did they just decide to make things different in cost according to race, just to stir intellectual thought about fairness?
It's been a while since I went to school, are you saying that black people can pay a lower price for a class than white people?
Sam, you're terrified of any acknowledgment of race on the part of the state at all.
I don't agree with that.
I simply believe that affirmative action is an ineffective stop-gap solution that allows people to avoid looking at the systemic inequalities in our society.
Unfortunately for you, these inequalities are in large part predicated on racial segregation and the fact that America is still trying to escape the legacy of white supremacy.
What we have now is a milquetoast liberal notion of diversity which assumes that putting a few people of color in the right places will act as a panacea for a wretchedly broken system. When I militate in favor of class-based affirmative action, I don't do it because, like you, I'm afraid to think about race. I do it because I recognize that a vaguely multicultural oligarchy is still an oligarchy.
How can you eloquently and succinctly (and quite correctly in this instance) describe the issues with affirmative action then say it benefits wealthy blacks more than poor whites...some could argue that simply being white in America is worth alot...
Still, blacks and white americans have a relationship in this country as 'founders' (and we won't even get into the treatment of native americans) that other minorities don't bear the battle wounds from.
If dad's rich, connections, alumnus status, school/booster supports, common social circles plays more of role than your kid being black.
The rich black kid is less likely to be on the bubble (actually the rich kid period) and 'need' to have someone overlook subpar scores.
Because I've served on admissions committees and worked with organizations designed to diversify academic and public institutions? Right now, being black is a huge bonus, and if you're wealthy, black, and able to perform moderately well in school and on tests, you can basically pick where you want to go to college.
I'll put it like this. As a middle-class black student with a 1510 SAT (back when it was out of 1600), I got into every single school I applied to, including 2 Ivies, with generous scholarships (including several scholarships targeted solely at people of color). A white student with equal grades would not be able to say the same.
I literally had professors telling me how excited they were to diversify their department when I was applying to graduate school (where my admissions success was basically the same, no rejections, even to Ph.D. programs with 5-10% acceptance rates).
It's patronizing, and it's an inefficient way to help those who need it. I didn't need the help. I was better than most students on my own merits, and I had enormous advantages as well. We need a better system.
Are the bake sale item price deifferences according to race, equivalent to the price differences in tuition according to race? Or did they just decide to make things different in cost according to race, just to stir intellectual thought about fairness?
It was a poor attempt to unfairly make it easier for minorities to accomplish something (in this case, buy a cookie) as an analogy to the presumed increase ease of admissions for them due to relaxed standards due to affirmative action.
It could also be the presumed relative value of said degree after graduation because if you were minority, oyu obviously got in due to affirmative action and your degree is worth less.
Sam, you're terrified of any acknowledgment of race on the part of the state at all.
Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunks_galore
I don't agree with that.
I simply believe that affirmative action is an ineffective stop-gap solution that allows people to avoid looking at the systemic inequalities in our society.
It is. And I can acknowledge the issue of systemic inequality, I just don't think the racial angle is the correct angle to approach it from. Which is my problem with AA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunks_galore
What we have now is a milquetoast liberal notion of diversity which thinks that putting a few people of color in the right places will be a panacea for a wretchedly broken system.
Very well said. It is a band-aid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunks_galore
When I militate in favor of class-based affirmative action, I don't do it because, like you, I'm afraid to think about race. I do it because I recognize that a vaguely multicultural oligarchy is still an oligarchy.
I wouldn't say I'm afraid to think about race - just that I don't think it should take effect on a governmental level. But that just comes down to my beliefs on the role of government versus yours.
Attack the problem of poverty and as you said, it will have a disparate impact on certain races.
----
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmark
Wealthy whites benefit from resources that are unavailable to poor black students.
Wealthy blacks benefit from resources that are unavailable to poor white students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmark
Per percentage of the population, black people are overwhelmingly more poor than white people and a higher number per individual count of this country.
I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmark
Is not the bar lowered when wealthy white students score extra points because they have been coached/ tutored to the ACT and SAT?
Is not the bar lowered when wealthy black students score extra points because they have been coached/ tutored to the ACT and SAT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmark
Is that not affirmative action for whites?
How is legacy admissions not lowering the bar for whites when it affords them an enormous advantage over others.
Is that not affirmative action for whites.
No, it's not AA for whites. It is colorblind based on education etc. Disparities may contribute to unequal outcomes, but it's not AA. You want to fix the problem not by improving the condition of blacks, but by promoting them above equally qualified whites in the name of fairness. Sorry, that's not a solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmark
Does this country not have a separate and unequal education system that overwhelmingly benefits white people across the educational spectrum.
No. It benefits rich people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmark
You can deny, evade, spin, all you want. The minute you tell me that this is a color blind society and that the wealthy and the majority of top tier colleges are not geared towards wealthy whites and whites in particular, is when a your intellectual capital has been spent.
How can you eloquently and succinctly (and quite correctly in this instance) describe the issues with affirmative action then say it benefits wealthy blacks more than poor whites...some could argue that simply being white in America is worth alot...
Still, blacks and white americans have a relationship in this country as 'founders' (and we won't even get into the treatment of native americans) that other minorities don't bear the battle wounds from.
Because affirmative action in higher education does benefit wealthy blacks more than it does poor whites. I don't even understand how this is a point of contention.
White women have benefited a lot from affirmative action in the work place, but when it comes to college admissions, there's no question.
It's been a while since I went to school, are you saying that black people can pay a lower price for a class than white people?
No. I was not inferring what anyone should or should not pay for tuition.
I was wondering what process the people running the bake sale used to determine the cost of the baked goods. Are their prices in proportion to the proposed tuition fees?
If dad's rich, connections, alumnus status, school/booster supports, common social circles plays more of role than your kid being black.
The rich black kid is less likely to be on the bubble (actually the rich kid period) and 'need' to have someone overlook subpar scores.
I can agree with you up to a certain point.
I think one has to realize that a percentage of the truly poor black people, will not be successful in college because, they refuse to learn the fundamentals, refuse to answer the questions correctly because they know their class mates will have a problem with it. They don't have an environment where they can see beyond their circumstances, no mentors, no peers to emulate.
Unfortunately it seems many urban school systems suffer from these circumstances.
I think one has to realize that a percentage of the truly poor black people, will not be successful in college because, they refuse to learn the fundamentals, refuse to answer the questions correctly because they know their class mates will have a problem with it. They don't have an environment where they can see beyond their circumstances, no mentors, no peers to emulate.
Unfortunately it seems many urban school systems suffer from these circumstances.
This is the systemic issue with affirmative action; in the rare cases it does help the right people, it's like intervening in the 9th inning with the score 15-1.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
