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Is this Miami fellow seriously expecting to be taken seriously by making such comments as; The north outlawed the Confederacy and The South fought the war to secede? The Southern states had already seceded. The war was not about secession. Nor could the 'north outlaw' the Confederacy, legally formed.
As to the comment about the condition of the South following the firing of the last round; it was indeed tough, one would imagine, to hitch up one's britches and continue life while stellar officers like Sherman were riding around stealing, pillaging, raping, burning, torturing and visiting other indignities over the land.
At what should be the conclusion of this discussion, I think its important to consider the original post, that being the confusion felt by Vegaspilgrim (who I assume gambles in Las Vegas annually) when she rode around looking for a house to buy and spotted 'the flag'. After the passage of two weeks of posts now, it would seem that her opinion matters. I think I saw her post recently that nothing had changed in her mind and she still sees it as a symbol of slavery and racism.
It's important, albeit somewhat telling, that after all the effort to lay out history and context, she has moved none the more toward truth, and, in fact, seems to have slid further into mythology. For that, I sense a personal failure, having tried to do my part to be honest and truthful.
On the other hand, I'm willing to bet half the contents of my woodshed that more than a few minds have been changed and many more than a few folks have been properly educated. And, after all, that is our obligation. Notwithstanding the vile spewings of a few detractors and the well written, yet totally unfounded and uneducated posts of the Miami gentlewriter, it is a good thing that most of you can sit peacefully and say, "You know, these people DO have a point. I never thought of it that way. I've had some fairly wrong assumptions for a very long time."
The First Official Flag of the Confederacy. Although less well known than the "Confederate Battle Flags",the Stars and Bars was used as the official flag of the Confederacy from March 1861 to May of 1863.
Confederate Navy Jack: Used as a navy jack at sea from 1863 onward. This flag has become the generally recognized symbol of the South.
It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights.
The Confederate flag doesn't bother me, but NASCAR does! lol
Southern ways can be hard for us Northners to understand , some times. I lived in the south 20 some years. I enjoyed the southern charm , the grits , the country ham and red eye gravy.I made some great friends. Southerners are much more interested in history than northners. I enjoyed debate, to a point.....................Politics , ( one of the reasons I moved back north )........they just could not understand my liberal , heathen ways !
I wonder if christina0001, the creator of this thread has found answers to any questions she may have been looking for, or if the amount of responses for, against and indifferent to the Confederate flag are satisfying to her?
My best guess to the purpose of the thread was to gauge general public opinion from all over the U.S., perhaps internationally as well on this topic.
I apologize, but I don't have enough respect for the flag to delineate it into categories. I am talking about the Confederate flag in any form. It was a banner of soldiers on the field who were fight for. . ?
Kind of funny how the North has been consistently more prosperous than the South for the nearly 150 years following the end of the war?
As of now, you should owe your first loyalty to the country in which you reside. The country that grants you the freedom to openly express your views. What has the Confederacy done for you lately?
I am stating that it is my personal opinion that the Confederate flag is a sign of disloyalty. I am also stating the fact that the Confederate flag was replaced with the American flag after the Battle of Okinawa becasue the Confederate flag is not representative of our country and its ideals.
In grade school I learned about slavery in the North. Slavery was in nowhere near as widespread in population in the North as it was in the South. Plain and simple.
I think you're pretty far from understanding reality. You have been looking at this issue from the standpoint of 1865 and not 2007. Your defense of the Confederate flag is disrespectful, in that members of a entire race are openly offended by the Confederate flag and what they believe it to represent, but yet you still fly it proudly, and fail to take it down in honor and respect of their struggle. Unfortunately, I guess uninformed, diluted history is still very much at work, making you believe that your ancestors fought for a noble cause, when really they just fought to tear apart families in the name of economic prosperity.
Oh well.
In other words you don't have enough respect for your countries history to UNDERSTAND the full details of why and how it went thru trials and tribulations.
As others have pointed out, after it was fully pillaged, raped, burnt to the ground and destroyed there was not much left for many families to support themselves. Many moved out west after the war. A common find on many peoples former cabins/homes/land was "GTT" for Gone to Texas (or points westward). One can not plant a crop in a field that is scorched and devoid of the nutrients it needs to produce a crop. They went to start a new life to after everything they had including family members was taken from them. Oh, and before the war the South was more prosperous. That was one of the major reasons for the war. The South was tired of the people up north coming in and instituting taxes on our ports and taking the tax dollars back up north. Many of the major ports in the country pre Civil War were in the South. Now some 150+ years later they have once again returned and the South is home to many of the top ports in our country. Does the term "Boston Tea Party" mean anything to you? It runs along the same lines as what was going on back then. Have some respect for your country and learn the REAL truth of its history.
And one of the reasons why we have that freedom is because our ancestors many of which were Sons and Daughters of the Confedercy fought for that right. They stood up and fought for fair taxation. They stood up and fought for their rights that were being stripped from them. That all men created equal was not going on back then even white vs white when it came to the north vs the south. They were being taken advantage of and knew it. Wake up and realize that or else it may be too late and our country is no longer what it once was. What has the Confedercy done for me lately? Well I still know the hard times my forefathers faced in the last 150+ years and respect their hardwork and commitment to make things better for their children and that has continued to be passed down from one generation to the next.
The flag was not a sign of disloyalty. It was rather a sign of freedom and to fight oppression that was being pressed down hard against a region and its people. Geez, learn some history.
If you don't understand why in terms of numbers there were more slaves in the South than the North.......... I give up. Good gravy boy. How many crops were grown in the north? How many large farms/plantations were in the North? How many crops were grown in the fertile soils of the South? How many farms and platations? The North had more concentrated city centers and manufacturing. The South had vast amounts of wide open spaces with fertile soils and easy access to sea ports. They needed people that could work these fields and they were not all slaves nor blacks. Oh, and if living on these plantations was so bad then tell me why so many former slaves stayed on for generations to come on those farms and still worked the fields. They had a good life and were well taken care of in many cases. Not saying all were like that and not saying there were bad "slave owners". But that is no different than today when you could work for a company w/ a bad boss that treats you worse than the slaves of our past were. And we wonder why history repeats itself albeit in a different form. tsk-tsk
And what is wrong with us remembering what our forefathers went thru? They were not all rich owners of huge plantations that owned 100's of slaves. Many of them were farm boys that came from families of modest means that were working hard to make a living off the land. They heard threats coming of pillaging, rapes and murder. They fought for their land and their rights to work their land to support their families. They fought for the freedom to have fair representation and taxation. They fought from being oppressed by a people that did not represent them nor know or understand the way of life in a different region.
Sadly we can probably blame many of the ills of society today on the fact that there are too many people like this poster that have chosen to block out entire sections of our countries history. Therefore the ills of yesteryears return in a different shape and form. Many of the Ken Lay's of the 2000's are no different than the ones from 150+ years ago that use people to make themselves richer and keep the "little guy" repressed and down. It is no different than what is happening in our communities and states today when state politicians see a city or community came up w/ a way to generate revenue and they decide they want their hands in the pot too. And who is to stand up and fight back if we are to keep the idea that to fight back might mean being "disloyal". What a pity
In other words you don't have enough respect for your countries history to UNDERSTAND the full details of why and how it went thru trials and tribulations.
The Confederacy is not my country. No, I don't care about this history of the Confederacy, or its people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momof2dfw
As others have pointed out, after it was fully pillaged, raped, burnt to the ground and destroyed there was not much left for many families to support themselves. Many moved out west after the war. A common find on many peoples former cabins/homes/land was "GTT" for Gone to Texas (or points westward). One can not plant a crop in a field that is scorched and devoid of the nutrients it needs to produce a crop.
Let's completely ignore the fact that some people could no longer sustain themselves because they no longer had slaves to do most of their work for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momof2dfw
They went to start a new life to after everything they had including family members was taken from them. Oh, and before the war the South was more prosperous. That was one of the major reasons for the war. The South was tired of the people up north coming in and instituting taxes on our ports and taking the tax dollars back up north. Many of the major ports in the country pre Civil War were in the South. Now some 150+ years later they have once again returned and the South is home to many of the top ports in our country. Does the term "Boston Tea Party" mean anything to you? It runs along the same lines as what was going on back then. Have some respect for your country and learn the REAL truth of its history.
Before the war the South was more prosperous? For what MAJOR reason? Because slave labor contributed significant amounts to the South's economy. Who do you think was working at the ports in New Orleans and Charleston? Not white people. Before you tell me to learn the REAL truth of the United States, you need to acknowledge some facts, instead of skipping around the major issues to make the South look like some calm, self-supporting society until it was attack by the big, bad Northerners. Get a clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momof2dfw
And one of the reasons why we have that freedom is because our ancestors many of which were Sons and Daughters of the Confedercy fought for that right. They stood up and fought for fair taxation. They stood up and fought for their rights that were being stripped from them. That all men created equal was not going on back then even white vs white when it came to the north vs the south. They were being taken advantage of and knew it. Wake up and realize that or else it may be too late and our country is no longer what it once was. What has the Confedercy done for me lately? Well I still know the hard times my forefathers faced in the last 150+ years and respect their hardwork and commitment to make things better for their children and that has continued to be passed down from one generation to the next.
This is just a shame. No, we do not have most of our rights and freedoms in this country because of the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy. The Confederacy fought to withhold rights and freedom from millions of people? Remember that? I guess not. Please, oh please, tell me what rights were being stripped from the Confederacy? The right to own people and prosper off of the fruits of their labor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by momof2dfw
The flag was not a sign of disloyalty. It was rather a sign of freedom and to fight oppression that was being pressed down hard against a region and its people. Geez, learn some history.
What oppression? Please tell me how your ancestors were so oppressed? Mine weren't. We're Southerners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momof2dfw
If you don't understand why in terms of numbers there were more slaves in the South than the North.......... I give up. Good gravy boy. How many crops were grown in the north? How many large farms/plantations were in the North? How many crops were grown in the fertile soils of the South? How many farms and platations? The North had more concentrated city centers and manufacturing. The South had vast amounts of wide open spaces with fertile soils and easy access to sea ports. They needed people that could work these fields and they were not all slaves nor blacks. Oh, and if living on these plantations was so bad then tell me why so many former slaves stayed on for generations to come on those farms and still worked the fields. They had a good life and were well taken care of in many cases. Not saying all were like that and not saying there were bad "slave owners". But that is no different than today when you could work for a company w/ a bad boss that treats you worse than the slaves of our past were. And we wonder why history repeats itself albeit in a different form. tsk-tsk
Lord have mercy on this woman. Please get a clue. Many of those plantations weren't even created until slaves arrived. Agricultural production would have NEVER reached the size it did if it weren't for slaves. There were PLENTY of farms in the North. The fact of the matter is, they never grew to the size of the plantations in the South because of the absence of slave labor. Slave labor determined the size of the plantations, plantations didn't determine the size of slave labor. That's like saying the size of house will determine how many children a married couple has. Absurd. Try again.
True, the North did had a much more prominent manufacturing industry. That doesn't equate to the North having fewer jobs for slaves to fill than the South. Not at all. Slaves couldn't work in manufacturing? Slaves couldn't work in agriculture up North?
Quote:
Originally Posted by momof2dfw
And what is wrong with us remembering what our forefathers went thru? They were not all rich owners of huge plantations that owned 100's of slaves. Many of them were farm boys that came from families of modest means that were working hard to make a living off the land. They heard threats coming of pillaging, rapes and murder. They fought for their land and their rights to work their land to support their families. They fought for the freedom to have fair representation and taxation. They fought from being oppressed by a people that did not represent them nor know or understand the way of life in a different region.
Many of YOUR forefathers did not own slaves because they couldn't afford to purchase any. It wasn't some sort of note people made that owning others was immoral.
Please tell me how the "way of life" in the South differed so greatly from the "way of life" in the North that it caused a war to be fought? Could it be over economic prosperity through human ownership, hmmm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by momof2dfw
Sadly we can probably blame many of the ills of society today on the fact that there are too many people like this poster that have chosen to block out entire sections of our countries history. Therefore the ills of yesteryears return in a different shape and form. Many of the Ken Lay's of the 2000's are no different than the ones from 150+ years ago that use people to make themselves richer and keep the "little guy" repressed and down. It is no different than what is happening in our communities and states today when state politicians see a city or community came up w/ a way to generate revenue and they decide they want their hands in the pot too. And who is to stand up and fight back if we are to keep the idea that to fight back might mean being "disloyal". What a pity
No. Many of the ills of society have come from people like yourself who choose to block out a shameful part of history. Sure, you would like to believe that your ancestors and other Southerners were poor souls just trying to scrape by, when the big, bad North came and tried to take what little you all had. In turn, your ancestors fought back mercilessly, and lost anyway. All the while ignoring that your fellow Southerners owned millions of people, and the Civil War freed those people, who would have still been enslaved had it not been for the War and the efforts of the Union. You want to skirt around the issues and blame others for disrupting your "way of life," while not realize that that "way of life" caused families to be torn apart and lives to be destroyed well before the "War of Northern Agression" even began. It's a nasty little secret that you Confederate supporters will never admit to out of both fear and shame. Don't worry. The rest of us know the truth.
To all: I hereby apologize for my post http://www.city-data.com/forum/1499090-post419.html, where I gave miamiman evidently too much respect.
It was my hope that there would be some intelligent give-and-take, but that has been proven wrong. The following is just one example of such:
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
The Confederacy is not my country. No, I don't care about this history of the Confederacy, or its people.
To not care about a people nor their history, when it is a flag of these people that is being discussed, damn,,, that kinda is an ignorant way of thinking, IMHO. Besides, is not the states that formed the Confederacy not a part of the USA - and therefore is not the history of this region of the USA therefore not germane to this discussion, let alone not important to your and my country? To state that you do not care about 'the history of,,, its people', wow, that is very simple and sad manner of thinking. Strange, not once in any of the the posts in this thread that those have posted defending the flag, have I read anyone disparaging nor using such language about those that hailed from the north [well, besides a quip above regarding carpetbaggers ]. Could it be that some of us are not quite so quick to judge, nor to paint an entire region or its people with a the same brush, while realizing that history is a very complicated and entangled subject? Again, both sides had their ills, their sad stories, their different means of oppression and hate and bigotry - and yes both sides had slaves, although of course the south had many much more w/in its borders, the north was not quite a pure as some would believe. In any case, again, the flag that is of discussion here is not a racist flag - it is a flag that has been used by others that have come since that time to use for their own terrible and wrong agendas, just as these same groups have used the Bible and the US flag to promote their ways too. Should these other items be also then be symbols of racism?
My husband and I were driving around today, looking at neighborhoods we might buy a home in. In a driveway we saw a car parked with a Confederate flag sticker on it. My husband said, "No way am I living in a neighborhood where someone has a Confederate flag displayed." I don't want to live around racist people either, but perhaps the person isn't racist, but is just really into the Civil War. And also I think it's impossible to find a neighborhood without any racist people, so unless every house has the Confederate flag hanging up, there is no reason to believe this neighborhood has more racist people than any other neighborhood.
What does the Confederate flag mean to you?
white racism is only one of many forms of racism in the country but gets almost exclusive attention. the confederacy was probably one of the biggest mistakes the south ever made. it opened the door for the north to carry out some of it worst behavior which was the south's reason for ceceding from the union in the first place. mainly unconstitutional levy of texile tax on foreign trade. many good intentioned people supportive of the civil rights movement have been tryng to rewrite the history of the south.a big mistake. lots of resistance to this thinking and feeling carrys into the flag thing. hope that helps. stephen s san diego ca
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The Truth!!!
]. Could it be that some of us are not quite so quick to judge, nor to paint an entire region or its people with a the same brush, while realizing that history is a very complicated and entangled subject? Again, both sides had their ills, their sad stories, their different means of oppression and hate and bigotry - and yes both sides had slaves, although of course the south had many much more w/in its borders, the north was not quite a pure as some would believe. In any case, again, the flag that is of discussion here is not a racist flag - it is a flag that has been used by others that have come since that time to use for their own terrible and wrong agendas, just as these same groups have used the Bible and the US flag to promote their ways too. Should these other items be also then be symbols of racism?