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Those pesky regulations such has hiring illegals to do lawn work.
Yes yes LOL
And WHO is responsible for enforcing those regulations to ensure businesses are following the law? (cough cough) Ahem Sure seems like some businesses are getting away with doing exactly what you've described? Hmmm wonder why?
And let's see how well has the SEC done with all the Wall Street shenanigans? And the Minerals Management Service and EPA on the Deepwater Horizon spill? Federal Reserve and the endless economic bubbles we have? I have loads more examples. Yep. Government sure does a good job, doesn't it?
And libs wonder why some have the perception that government may not be the solution to all things...
Actually this thread is full of people insinuating and saying just that.
Yeah, if you put the anarchist's handbook in front of your screen while reading it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mon
We can have a conversation about regulations and making things easier for small business owners, but the majority of this thread has been about Randian fantasies that business' succeed solely because of the owner's will and denial that there is any social obligation to create an environment for that business to exist.
More strawman. I'm shocked.
Business owners exist within the exact same system that non business owners exist in.
They owe nothing more than others simply by virtue of being business owners. Nothing. If anything, they make a larger net contribution.
When you all refresh my memory on the 0% special tax rate plan for business owners that we're supposedly promoting, I'll shut up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033
No rational person is advocating it. It just that a lot of you folks have this misguided belief that elevates these "job creators" over everyone else. You can cut out the regulations and lower the taxes all you want but they can't create many jobs when your main consumers have seen their personal wealth diminished. Sometimes I wonder if conservatives realize it takes both supply and demand to get the economy going.
That's all well and good but you won't find me screaming to cut taxes on the rich before cutting them on the poor and middle class. I have my issues with modern conservatism, but this kind of garbage makes my blood boil.
I wonder if liberals like Obama realize it takes both supply and demand to get the economy going.
I mean really, do you all have a point that would serve any useful purpose outside of a debate with an anarchist? I'd really love to hear it.
Edit: That was a a stupid thing for me to say. An anarchist would whoop your ass in a debate, at least he would have a consistent viewpoint. What I should have said was, do you all have a point that would serve any useful purpose outside of a debate with someone who is pushing for a special 0% tax rate just for business owners.
Guess who funded the road infrastructure??.. the businesses and individuals who pay the taxes.. it is the taxpayer who put that road there. Where do the taxes come from?.. the people who go to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tofurkey
The same taxpayers who elected the local government who taxed the taxpayers for the purpose of using those funds to satisfy the needs of those same taxpayers.
Perhaps Obama should be asking... How did the Mayor, Legislator, Representative, Senator, and even President get there?
Certainly NOT ON HIS OWN! ! ! !
But by the efforts of his EMPLOYERS!
And in a few, regrettable cases, ACORN
Tax payers paid for it! Great you are starting to catch on that it required spending money (a sh*t load in fact) to get America to where it is. I'm going to repost something I posted way earlier that got lost in the ignorance of this thread:
You (among others) have a very backwards way of thinking how countries operate. Countries don't just start off with roads, rails, postal systems, school systems, armies, financial institutions, universities, etc. They are built and maintained over many generations. Everyone one has contributed through some form of tax or through force (slavery), of course more than others, and the result of this "collectiveness" is America folks. You folks are so blinded by hate for Obama and liberals that you forgot how America was built. There is nothing socialist or communist about this notion unless you want to twist it that way.
Everybody has the means to the pursuit of happiness. Just because you are an intelligent individual who owns a business doesn't you did all by yourself. It is literally impossible to do it all by yourself. Someone has to protect your freedoms and security. Someone had to educate at you and your employees. Someone had to build the infrastructure that allows your goods and services to be transported and manufactured. Someone had to build the roads that get you and your employees to work. Who paid for this is pretty irrelevant as everyone benefits, especially those who have contributed more up front. That is the point.
Plain and simple there is a reason why you have so much freedom and are able to achieve the things you can.
How could a billionaire not......be the greediest person in the world?
This answer I gotta see
Bill Gates, billionaire, has been of more use to the rest of society than virtually any other person in the history of the world. Proof of this is that we voluntarily paid him for products of such value that we would rather have had the products than the money we paid him. I don't know about you, but my cumulative lifetime purchases of Microsoft products will never amount to more than a tiny fraction of their value to me, and the wealth they helped me to build.
His billions are a byproduct of his usefulness to the rest of us. We voted with our wallets; he won--and we won.
The way he is splashing money around with his philanthropy make it pretty obvious that "greedy" is probably not an adjective that applies to him now.
And libs wonder why some have the perception that government may not be the solution to all things...
Well that's just because right wingers are stupid.
Any logical person knows that when something does not operate as expected, the obvious solution is to increase the size of that thing. Then it'll work.
Actually, I'm fine with the so called job creators in this thread moving to somewhere without the burden of roads, public safety, a healthy and educated workforce, sanitation, and other public services. I will applaud their innate ability if they they can throw off the shackles of public goods that protect their investments and go to such a place and make a go at a successful small business.
WTF are you talking about? Nobody has said that those things don't exist or aren't beneficial.
Here's the thing about that argument. EVERYONE in the country - whether they pay taxes or not - has equal access to "roads, public safety, a healthy and educated workforce, sanitation, and other public services." Business owners weren't helped any more by these these things than anybody else, but employers typically pay MORE to support them than employees. So that argument, which doesn't make any sense to begin with, actually works against your position that the President was right.
If I, as a business owner, somehow had more or better access to the roads than you, you might have a case. If I had better access to sanitation than you, you might have a case. But everybody benefits from those things, so saying that one person was helped over another because of them is just plain stupid.
In case you need one more example... Let's say that I had a great teacher in school. I didn't - they were all average, at best, and some were particularly awful (for instance, the one that was arrested for having drugs and a loaded firearm on the Jr. High campus), but let's say that I did. If that teacher was instrumental in my being successful today, why isn't every one of the thousands of students that teacher has had over his/her career also successful?
The argument in defense of the President that's pervading this discussion is so idiotic, it's laughable.
I think Obama is playing this to the masses that have gone to school under NCLB where everyone is a winner, everyone can, no one person is special. Go through 12 years of that and then hit the streets and no wonder we have our "occupy" movements.
Changes to society are generational and it starts in the schools.
Because the clock punchers have been led astray and led to believe that it is these "job creators" that are the alpha and the omega of America and the economy.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest." --Adam Smith
If you are an able-bodied citizen, you have the social obligation to help meet societal needs. It isn't as if the fire department and the road-building and public sanitation are ONLY used by businesspeople. Whether your sustenance comes from laying brick or doing brain surgery or running a business, when you make money you pay some taxes. Nobody disputes that.
Obama's statement was a gratuitous slap at some of society's most valuable players. 300 million people in this country; I'm the only one who built MY business. Nobody built it for me. Yes, like the other 300 million people, I benefit from roads and sewers and all the rest. And yes, like 51% of the other 300 million people, if I make any decent amount of money, I'll pay federal income taxes.
Without going all Randian on you, Obama's statement provides an important insight into his opinion of our entrepreneurs, and his lack of understanding of the sources of unparallelled growth and prosperity this country has generated over the past 200 years.
Back to Adam Smith: why are we even talking about what business people think, or appraising the relative contribution of society and individual effort that goes into their success? For 99% of small businesses, the more greedy and self-interested they are, the more service they will render to the rest of us. Obama's preoccupation with attacks on those who do not share his belief that the government is the source of all prosperity is beyond obnoxious: it is dangerous.
Because the clock punchers have been led astray and led to believe that it is these "job creators" that are the alpha and the omega of America and the economy.
And for the clock punchers they are. Their only other alternative is to become dependent on the government for food, clothing, housing and spending money.
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