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Old 08-29-2012, 05:54 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
9,031 posts, read 8,989,712 times
Reputation: 5698

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J746NEW View Post
There are some good quotes here.
Unfortunately, the status quo is going in the total opposite direction, owned by the rich elite, whom happen to be destroying this country for their own greed.
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

- Thomas Jefferson
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:28 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,218 posts, read 6,989,888 times
Reputation: 2035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
I'd say the federalist won because power corrupts
I think that applies to both sides.

Personally though, I think things turned out for the best. Slavery was a touchy issue (not necessarily for the moral reasons) back then (couldn't ratify Constitution without 3/5s compromise). I'm not too certain this country would have lasted with a strong state system as it could have ripped this country apart or the America experiment may not have been as spectacular. With that said, that isn't a ringing endorsement of what we have today, as I would like to strike a better balance between feds and states.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,875 posts, read 21,526,895 times
Reputation: 8642
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033 View Post
I think that applies to both sides.

Personally though, I think things turned out for the best. Slavery was a touchy issue (not necessarily for the moral reasons) back then (couldn't ratify Constitution without 3/5s compromise). I'm not too certain this country would have lasted with a strong state system as it could have ripped this country apart or the America experiment may not have been as spectacular. With that said, that isn't a ringing endorsement of what we have today, as I would like to strike a better balance between feds and states.
Less then 300 years old? We are hardly a "success" just yet.

Still in the experimental stage, and we aren't nearly as "free" as we once were. Really, the United States as it sits today, is nothing like the founders envisioned, even those who lived 100 years ago.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:34 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 8,486,464 times
Reputation: 4160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Warning from two Framers of the Constitution and one Founding father who wasn't privy to the debate.

FYI - There were 55 Framers of the Constitution and a damn site more members of the "Founding Fathers". Cherry picking quotes is a bit disingenuous.
TRANSLATION: I can't refute anything in your post, and I can't even find any quotes from similar sources that might refute them. But I hate them anyway, so I'll make up a vague statement guessing that there might be some somewhere, and hope somebody believes me instead of you.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:38 PM
 
31,372 posts, read 32,756,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
I'd say the federalist won because power corrupts
Power corrupts... the great defeat for Anti-Federalist occurred 150 years ago. One of the reasons, they couldn't even run a confederation without decentralized power.
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:03 PM
 
31,372 posts, read 32,756,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freightshaker View Post
Feel free to post more quotes of discenting opinion.. I wouldn't mind reading them
A government ought to contain in itself every power requisite to the full accomplishment of the objects committed to its care, and to the complete execution of the trusts for which it is responsible, free from every other control but a regard to the public good and to the sense of the people.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 31, January 1, 1788

As riches increase and accumulate in few hands, as luxury prevails in society, virtue will be in a greater degree considered as only a graceful appendage of wealth, and the tendency of things will be to depart from the republican standard. This is the real disposition of human nature; it is what neither the honorable member nor myself can correct. It is a common misfortunate that awaits our State constitution, as well as all others.

Alexander Hamilton, speech to the New York Ratifying Convention, June, 1788



As to Taxes, they are evidently inseparable from Government. It is impossible without them to pay the debts of the nation, to protect it from foreign danger, or to secure individuals from lawless violence and rapine.

Alexander Hamilton, Address to the Electors of the State of New York, March, 1801

Constitutions of civil government are not to be framed upon a calculation of existing exigencies, but upon a combination of these with the probable exigencies of ages, according to the natural and tried course of human affairs. Nothing, therefore, can be more fallacious than to infer the extent of any power, proper to be lodged in the national government, from an estimate of its immediate necessities.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 34, January 4, 1788

More after the break.
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:26 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,218 posts, read 6,989,888 times
Reputation: 2035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Less then 300 years old? We are hardly a "success" just yet.
I guess that depends on how you define success and what type of country you want to be? If it is a superpower whose culture spreads across the globe then America is a safe bet. I am having a hard time thinking of another country/civilization that impacted the world around as quickly and as much.

On the other hand, there a quite a few modern countries that do fine minding their own business and making small waves. However, with America's capitalistic ideals I have a hard time believing that it's success couldn't be measured any other way besides wealth and power.

Quote:
Still in the experimental stage, and we aren't nearly as "free" as we once were.
What is "Free"? If you mean doing whatever the f*ck you want then yes they were more free...

Quote:
Really, the United States as it sits today, is nothing like the founders envisioned, even those who lived 100 years ago.
And why should we care if things didn't turn out as envisioned for deceased folks? I care about the present and the future. I want rules and laws that are relevant with our current cultural, ideals, and technology. You don't really seem to appreciate the impact of going from a rural agrarian society to an semi-urban mechanized, industrial society to a modern, urban, quasi industrial/service oriented society. Considering the effects of our technology not just on ourselves, but the planet, why would you want to be as "free" back then?
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:27 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,218 posts, read 6,989,888 times
Reputation: 2035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
TRANSLATION: I can't refute anything in your post, and I can't even find any quotes from similar sources that might refute them. But I hate them anyway, so I'll make up a vague statement guessing that there might be some somewhere, and hope somebody believes me instead of you.
Are you scared of hearing or debating issues that run counter to what you have heard or believe?
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