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Lol. You just proved my point. Fine, pay the pensioners first. There will be no money for fire and police. Then the result will be no tax revenue to speak of after that, and the retires end up getting 0% forever onward.
Seems like you think it's smarter for the pensioners to get 0% rather than some lowered percent.
Doh! How fricken retarded.
Per a judge's ruling in a private company's bankruptcy litigation: "Unions generally try to bargain for the best deal for their members," the judge wrote. "However, there is likely some responsibility to be absorbed for demanding benefits that the employer cannot realistically fund in perpetuity, particularly given the availability of sophisticated actuarial analysts and cost trend experts."
, Motown can become just like that Alabama town where gov't retirees held taxpayers hostage until ..ooops..pension ran dry.oops no more pension checks.
Same vultures in Bama as Motown.
The attitude you responded to is a microcosm of why Motown is bankrupt and dying, and why it deserves to be bankrupt and dying.
I am delighted Congress would never allow funds to go to save it. It deserves no help and no sympathy.
Yup - no different than why private companies go under. Detroit already got its "bailout", and it failed miserably.
Per a judge's ruling in a private company's bankruptcy litigation: "Unions generally try to bargain for the best deal for their members," the judge wrote. "However, there is likely some responsibility to be absorbed for demanding benefits that the employer cannot realistically fund in perpetuity, particularly given the availability of sophisticated actuarial analysts and cost trend experts."
Yup - no different than why private companies go under. Detroit already got its "bailout", and it failed miserably.
Per a judge's ruling in a private company's bankruptcy litigation: "Unions generally try to bargain for the best deal for their members," the judge wrote. "However, there is likely some responsibility to be absorbed for demanding benefits that the employer cannot realistically fund in perpetuity, particularly given the availability of sophisticated actuarial analysts and cost trend experts."
No different here.
Detroit actually didn't get a bailout, but the auto industry in the metro of Detroit did.
So you believe that the pension problem present in almost all large cities is driven by corruption?
So you favor doing away with all government pensions as corrupt?
the problem with pensions is you are ''rewarding''' TOO MUCH for so little
do you really think ANY COMPANY can afford to pay 50%/75%/ or 100% pensions to a person for 30/40/50 years just because they worked for that entity for 20 years
joe foreman joins the 'metro' in 1993 at the ripe old age of 18, starts out making 30k in the union job thta has a pension..the union GUARENTEES 5%-8% INCREASE EVERY YEAR, even with out promotions to better possitions
starts in 1993...30k...gets 6% every year
wage after 20 years in 2013...over 90k
his 50% pension starting one day one of his retirement at the ripe old age of 38........45k...just for sitting on his 3rd point of contact
expected age at his death 78...40 years of a pension that will increase every year
and that is just one person......
Last edited by workingclasshero; 07-22-2013 at 01:31 PM..
Again, it is between the people, Detroit, and Michigan when it comes to solving this problem. I am sure many mistakes were made in the past 15 years but that doesn't change the fact that agreements were made and should be honored. You can agree or disagree all you want but that is what was in their contracts and what they are owed.
Lol......yes corruption led to those contracts. Unions refusing to renegotiate and politicians in the union's pockets.
I must have missed all the compassion from the left when private companies were going under, and retirement funds dried up.
Cities and states are not going out of business. They are simply trying to unload Constitutionally protected contracts via BK.
Note that the Constitution writers were sufficiently worried about government bodies reneging on their commitment to put it in the MI Constitution twice. Once as a general clause for contracts and once as a specific for pensions.
In general failed private pensions were picked up at basic levels by the PBGC.
I don't like what has happened in Detroit but at the same time, I want some personal responsibility. I DO think the pensions promised should be protected for those who work at least 15 years and are retired BEFORE the bankruptcy. I would put everyone else into a 401k plan and also deposit "X" amount for every year working in the public sector (up to the max of 401k contribution limits). I think that plan is much more fair but I don't think it would solve the long-term problem. There are other things that will need to get done as well. I ABSOLUTELY do NOT think they should get a federal bailout, but probably sell city assets to meet obligations. Raise taxes on the remaining residents to rebuild Detroit and that will likely force out those who don't want to contribute. Those who do stay get rewarded with fixed property tax rates (until death) but HAVE to be a resident and stay a resident (driver's license, proof of residency, etc) for a period of at least twenty years.
the problem with pensions is you are ''rewarding''' TOO MUCH for so little
do you really think ANY COMPANY can afford to pay 50%/75%/ or 100% pensions to a person for 30/40/50 years just because they worked for that entity for 20 years
joe foreman joins the 'metro' in 1993 at the ripe old age of 18, starts out making 30k in the union job thta has a pension..the union GUARENTEES 5%-8% INCREASE EVERY YEAR, even with out promotions to better possitions
starts in 1993...30k...gets 6% every year
wage after 20 years in 2013...over 90k
his 50% pension starting one day one of his retirement at the ripe old age of 38........45k...just for sitting on his 3rd point of contact
expected age at his death 78...40 yaers of a pension that increases every year
I happen to agree that Cops and Firefighters are overpaid and over pensioned. That however is the deal made by our elected Representatives.
This is a long present and honored commitment in certain field were it is believed physical demands prevent a long career. It is in fact a way to lure people to these professions. Having been lured, served the required time and retired should your benefit now be curtailed.
The pension problem is universal. It is actually built into the actuarial tables used in pension calculations. There is in fact a large battle in the actuarial profession as to whether to keep these optimistic formulations or to go to something more conservative
So we have a universal problem present in government entity after entity. Do we solve it each instance at a time? Do we solve it by simply screwing the receivers of the benefits? The quewstion is a lot more complicated than simply fixing Detroit.
And in fact I would suspect a lot of the input on this issue on CD is driven by racial animus rather than any desire to deal with the underlying issues.
I happen to agree that Cops and Firefighters are overpaid and over pensioned. That however is the deal made by our elected Representatives.
This is a long present and honored commitment in certain field were it is believed physical demands prevent a long career. It is in fact a way to lure people to these professions. Having been lured, served the required time and retired should your benefit now be curtailed.
The pension problem is universal. It is actually built into the actuarial tables used in pension calculations. There is in fact a large battle in the actuarial profession as to whether to keep these optimistic formulations or to go to something more conservative
So we have a universal problem present in government entity after entity. Do we solve it each instance at a time? Do we solve it by simply screwing the receivers of the benefits? The quewstion is a lot more complicated than simply fixing Detroit.
And in fact I would suspect a lot of the input on this issue on CD is driven by racial animus rather than any desire to deal with the underlying issues.
the problem is when companies/unions/politicians promise things they CANT
40 plus year of a pension for working 20 years is just not sustainable
the federal government had/has a better idea: 55/30
you cant collect till you are 55 years old and have 30 years on the job........at least if more sustainable than the stupidity (of many if not most ) cities........BYC is the same way....retire from the NYPD after 20yrs on the job...50% pension
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, Motown can become just like that Alabama town where gov't retirees held taxpayers hostage until ..ooops..pension ran dry.oops no more pension checks.