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You'd have to admit there are some parallels as to what's taken place right here in the U.S. Some sublte things are the Dem/Rep are in it togehter. The idea that there are two parties with different views is an illusion at best. Therefore, the election process is basically null. The parties haven't been 'for the people' for quite some time as in hearing what the constituents say/want/need.
As far as the constitution goes, that has been dismantled in a sense via the authoritarion 'decider' for war. Plus, it is a 'living' document which is always (in the minds of power..) open to interpretation.
(off topic though...)
its not a living breathing document,that crap came along in the 90's when libs had their shining era with Clinton,basically that was BS to say they could thwart the document when it doesn't suit them.Yes some Repubs these days are acting the same way.
But when you see people like Ron Paul gaining momentum despite attempts to unscore him you can't say the election process is completely lost.For now,the people still have control over who is elected,if they aren't blind sheep.And economically America is not that bad compared to third world nations...yet.
I found a figure that stated 44% of Venezuela's oil revenue comes from the US. That was from 2004 though....still, let the SOB cut off his nose to spite his face. I'll gladly pay extra at the pump for that.
of course you would, you probably have hundreds of thousands of dollars stuffed away
As for the last thing most Americans need, it is for the price of oil to go up, but people who make the decisions have alot of "pride" and make money from oil going up, so it makes sense for them not to back down(then they will brainwash us about Chavez being a "Bad guy")
And I will take Chavez over any Repugnant any day, who would have thought a leader who actually wants to help the lower and middle class, doesnt sound like a complete bad guy to me
In a sense, he is. Chavez has spent nine years now trying to bring to the Venezuelan people what they have wanted and needed for decades. The opposition would take all those things away again. So in a way, there is no real choice to make...unless you are an insider in the Oligarchy...
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Originally Posted by Greatday
..."his" elections and referendums are far from being "free" in any way...
Why do you think your assessment differs so markedly from those of recognized and experienced election monitoring teams with their many years of experience in this very area?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday
He stifles discent - shuts down radio and tv stations.
Dissent? Organizing, fomenting, financing, and managing coups against an elected government, then repealing the constitution, and dissolving both the legislature and the supreme court would seem to go a tad beyond simple dissent. Do you think that if CBS were to pull off such a coup in this country but then be beaten back again within 48 hours by outraged citizens, the network would get off with punishment as light as loss of their over-the-air broadcasting licenses?
Chavez, among many others, believes that the Bush Administration was complicit in helping to arrange and finance the coup, and, in another sweeping demonstration of its ongoing support for and commitment to democracy abroad, the US did recognize the Oligarchy-installed Carmona government within minutes of its takeover of Miraflores Palace. So it might be that Chavez has every reason to be concerned over potential US reaction to a favorable referendum vote on Sunday. And as oil is Venezuela's only big stick, it shouldn't come as much of a surprise to see it being waved around.
Saganista,pick your perfect candidate you would like to see elected president for America.
Fast forward 4 years latter your president now declares the Constitution void,declares MSNBC,FOX,CNN and all media to be state run with his oversight.Declares that election terms should be made to 20 years because he "needs" to retain the office to insure his just policies continue to protect the interests of the poor.
I can just say one thing to that scenerio,American civil war number 2.Of course most leaders who would do this know this therefore this is why they make sure only their loyaltists are the ones armed.
I would rather see that power in the hands of a few than in the hands of one.
That would, in the abstract, depend entirely upon who the few were and who the one was. The most effective governmental system ever devised is that of the benevolent dictator.
In Venezuela's case, we have an approximately four-decade long record of what the Oligarchy would do, and it's clear that the word 'benevolent' would not in any sense be attached to them. Chavez, for his part, has worked, with an exception here and there, within the framework of Venezuelan law. He has advanced his proposals, made his arguments, and let the people decide. So far, they have sided overwhelmingly with him, much to the consternation of the Oligarchy and the Bush administration. He is not even close to being a dictator, and an up-vote on the referendum would not make him one.
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Originally Posted by mrsengle
And why does Chavez need to change these election rules, anyway? How is that improving the lives of his citizens?
Primarily by greasing the skids for reforms that the Venezuelan people have continually endorsed by wide margins. The opposition has a great deal of money, controls most of the land, and still has much power. They can play the obstructionist role and they do. The referendum would make it harder for this long-priveleged minority to block the path that the rest of the country wants to travel down. On the other hand, the referendum asks a lot. The outcome may depend on how much Venezuelan voters feel they can trust Hugo Chavez. An up-vote might mean some dizzying days ahead. A down-vote might embolden the Oligarchy to launch yet another coup attempt, and if successful, that would be the worst of all possible outcomes for Venezuela and her people...
You mean basics like milk and cooking oil. There is a scarcity of these and other basic necessities because state run markets that have stifled competetion.
Yes, it's like belonging to the Scarcity of the Month Club. This month's selection seems to be toilet paper. But let's understand this a little more fully. There is no doubt that anti-inflationary state price controls create market inefficiencies. In most cases, these have been minor. Beef would have been an exception for a time. But a substantial fraction of all shortages has been brought about directly through the efforts of the Oligarchy. They still control much of the land and its output, and there isn't much in the way of manipulation (or anything else) that they won't do as part of the price they are willing to pay for a return to political power. When the Venezuelan government sought to buy 330,000 tons of beef in Bolivia, it found that some of it had actually been raised in Venezuela. Stores of Venezuelan cooking oil have also showed up in Bolivia. How did they get there? Warehouses loaded with tons of sugar and other staples withheld from the market have been unearthed back home. Farms controlled by the Oligarchy have simply cut or stopped production. The Oligarchy uses all the power that it has to disrupt markets and create shortages in order to foment dissatisfaction with the Chavez government. As for the grocery stores themselves, let's not leave some sort of Soviet-style image of things lying out there. Private grocery stores and chains abound in Venezuela. Since 2003, the state has run its own national network of subsidized grocery stores (Mission Mercal) that intends, among other things to keep inflationary pressures re food off of the backs of poor people. In this, they have been partly successful and partly not, but just about half of Venezuela's population is now served by Mercal on a regular basis. Meanwhile, acceleration of food production via very popular peasant co-ops and government-owned processing plants will be one of the things more easily accomplished, should the referendum pass...
Without going into the arguement of redistribution.Once a leader sets himself up for life,changes the Constitution with strong arm tactics,and dismantles the election process to where it means nothing...that leader is no longer "for the people",and every leader for the poor,be it Chavez,Castro and such always falls prey to the "I am the one" mentality".
One-size-fits-all. How convenient. Meanwhile, and at least as far as his domestic programs go, I don't at all doubt that Chavez has an 'I am the one' mindset. But it is parallel to the same sense that Alex Rodriguez has when batting in the bottom of the ninth with the bases loaded and two outs and the Yankees trailing by three runs. I am the one, because there is something that needs to be done here, and no one else who can do it. Try understanding where Venezuela has had to come from. Try judging Chavez by what he has tried to do, and what he has succeeded in doing. Instead of offering knee-jerk and poorly drawn right-wing anti-socialist rant, try figuring out the first reason why the US has not been working cooperatively with him from the start...
Saganista,pick your perfect candidate you would like to see elected president for America.
I don't know of any such candidate. We will have to settle for some highly flawed persona and hope for the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking
Fast forward 4 years latter your president now declares the Constitution void,declares MSNBC,FOX,CNN and all media to be state run with his oversight.Declares that election terms should be made to 20 years because he "needs" to retain the office to insure his just policies continue to protect the interests of the poor.
I assume that you feel this scenario is loosely based upon actual recent events in Venezuela. If so, you read far too much from the disinformation media. My guess is that you owe yourself better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking
I can just say one thing to that scenerio,American civil war number 2.Of course most leaders who would do this know this therefore this is why they make sure only their loyaltists are the ones armed.
Well, arms are certainly widespread among the populace of the US, and you may rest assured that in Venezuela, the Oligarchy has sufficient firepower to carry out such good works as the blowing up of judges who render decisions that they disagree with...
Last edited by saganista; 12-01-2007 at 02:57 PM..
its not a living breathing document,that crap came along in the 90's...
True, but it was the 1790's...
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