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I read the articles and about the first 20 or so posts. When subjects like this come up there always seems to be just two opposing points that come to the foreground.
1)Those that state its racist and should be not allowed. 2)Those that state the flag means something different.
There a few that state it's free speech. If one falls into this category they are usually wrote off as racist or closet racist. Simply just sympathezers to position #2.
Unfortunately, if you state anything less than "ban it" you end up spending much of your time trying to make the point that your not defending the flag's meaning or those that are supporting the flag because what it means to them. Whatever that really is to them.
So, I guess I have to state it upfront. I'm not a racist. The flag has no deep resonating reason in my life that makes me want to display it.
Some in the south state differently. If they state it has much more to do with culture, pride or whatever, the opposing side basically states that their points have no merit. It's all about slavery.
I don't believe that those speaking or not telling the truth. From either side. It's a difference of opinion.
When we have differences of opinions, I truly believe it is dangerous for the majority of people in any given area to regulate and outlaw those opinions on something that doesn't physically harm someone else.
Disagree yes but ban no.
What does banning displays of those thoughts accomplish?
If your in camp one and believe everyone that has some attachment to that flag and would like to sell or display it is racist, why would you think it is a good thing that they hide it?
Would you not like to know who the racist (in your beliefs) are? What does banning accomplish? You don't get to see it, So, it's not there?
Now if someone admitted and was advocating hurting someone or a group openly with no debate as to meaning, then I would have a different opinion.
By all means, both sides can argue until their hearts contend the meaning and symbolism of a flag. That's really not the point.
The point is you are taking away the right of others to state what they believe it represents.
Sure racists use that flag. I'm also sure that many do believe it represents something different and would argue those points. Does it matter if they are right in that opinion?
As a person that believes every person should be treated as a individual, that race and color should disappear from judgements of individuals altogether, I get accused of being a racist or some other unflattering statement for seeing nothing wrong with people exercising their viewpoints.
Much like trying to discuss problems I see with parts of the civil rights act.
Some in the south state differently. If they state it has much more to do with culture, pride or whatever, the opposing side basically states that their points have no merit. It's all about slavery.
it had nothing to do with slavery, never had. maybe some stupid bigots but nothing at all with slavery
Some in the south state differently. If they state it has much more to do with culture, pride or whatever, the opposing side basically states that their points have no merit. It's all about slavery.
it had nothing to do with slavery, never had. maybe some stupid bigots but nothing at all with slavery
Doesn't matter.
So without me stating I personally agree or disagree, I support that you have that opinion. It's yours.
Going to my point in my post, No-matter how many times you state that many others will believe differently. So what to them too. Just because they do that does not give them the right to ban your ability to visibly state such in the form of product bans.
It's really not the point. Your arguing the legitimacy of your position. I may or may not agree.
Legitimacy doesn't need to be argued. Your right to support those beliefs do.
First off, who is better qualified to decide what symbols (particularly national/cultural symbols) mean than the people who use it? If they use them to signify a certain identity or point of view that they explain in detail to all who are interested, it strikes me as extremely arrogant to step in, claim that the symbol really means something else, and because of that its use should be discontinued. It would strike everyone else as arrogant, too, if it were any people other than (white) Southerners. That's why I agree with those who say the South is the thorn in the side of America - when the rest of America discusses anything related to the South all reason and objectivity goes out the window. Oftentimes the South itself joins in the madness and makes the irrationality unanimous.
Secondly, in response to the OP, I actually think the bill is reasonable, considering that there is no reason for the California government to ever fly or have anything to do with the Confederate flag. They're very far from the South and Californians had very little involvement in the Civil War. It's amazing that a topic like this could generate 21 pages in such a short time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer
Yeah, just like the Nazi flag doesn't fly.
You are aware that all the slaves post-Founding came over on ships flying the Stars and Stripes and all the slaves labored under fields the Star-Spangled Banner waved over for all but five years of slavery's history, aren't you? Aren't you also aware that no slave ship ever sailed under the Confederate flag, since they continued the 1808 slave trade ban established after the American flag was flying on slave ships for over 20 years? Doesn't that make the Stars and Strips far more of a racist symbol of a government that supported slavery than even the Confederate government's flag? Especially consider that the Confederate battle flag never represented the Confederate government, only the Army of Northern Virginia, and it was only well after the war ended that it was used as a symbol for the South as a distinct people. Regimes come and go but the South endures, and this is what the Confederate battle flag has always represented in its history as a cultural/national symbol: the South, in its past, present, and future.
Have Southerners committed crimes and atrocities? Yes, but so have Americans as a whole, yet we don't call for American culture and symbols to be destroyed because of it, because we recognize that Americans' identity is so much more than a list of crimes and atrocities, also encompassing all the good the people who identify with those flags have accomplished including their work to correct and overcome those very vices and crimes committed under those flags. As a flag representing the South and Southerners, it also represents the modern South which has indisputably made tremendous progress overcoming the white supremacists' brand of racism. As a flag of the region from whence it came, as opposed to the flag of a regime ruling over land that already had an emblem, it is more comparable to the German national flag than the Nazi flag.
Just what emblem would you propose the South use that even comes close to the historical rootedness and recognition the Confederate battle flag enjoys? And what emblem would you propose America use that comes close to the historical rootedness and recognition the American flag enjoys, considering that Americans have been as racist a people as Southerners historically? We live by all of the aforementioned logic when we see and use the American flag, so why shouldn't the same logic be applied to the Confederate flag or any other people's flag or symbols of identity?
I suspect the answer has more to do with animus towards the white South as a distinct people than those against the Confederate flag care to admit. It is for this reason that Southerners, particularly white Southerners, will continue to perceive belligerence from the rest of the country and fly and use the Confederate flag and other Southern symbols. Usually when a people or a culture feel they are under attack or being discriminated against they attach far more importance to their symbols and other distinguishing marks of their identity. They will also be more hostile and less cooperative with those they perceive as attacking them than they would be otherwise.
Just what emblem would you propose the South use that even comes close to the historical rootedness and recognition the Confederate battle flag enjoys? .
Yes, there were thousands of Black folks killed this year by the Confederate Flag and by Confederate money. Didn't you hear? There was the Confederate Flag that killed Trayvon Martin, there was the Confederate money that killed that thug in Missouri. Just scores and scores of Blacks killed off because of that flag and money. LOL!
If this is an attempt to be funny, it isn't working.
Why do foreigners like yourself throw around terms from the constitution without understanding what they mean? If you're going to live in this country, learn about the constitution.
"Foreigner".....? LOL. Where did you get that idea? I'm a pure blooded American, born and raised. As to your comments about the Constitution, I have a copy of it that I keep on hand. It's included as a bonus in the book I bought called The Federalist Papers. Perhaps you should try reading those if you want to fully understand the Constitution and it's meanings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest
One thing that I've learned is that you cannot assume that everyone in these threads has gone to school in the U.S. or has read the constitution. It's evident that based on WhipperSnapper 88's post, she is not from around here and thus does not fully understand what the constitution means by "free speech".
You're batting 1000 today NJBest...... I'm also a red-blooded American male.....
Just goes to show that if you assume, eventually you end up looking foolish.
It's all explained in the thread if you read through it.
You couldn't give me a brief summary?
20 pages? Nah. I have other threads to haunt.
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