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Old 11-01-2014, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Lyon, France, Whidbey Island WA
20,834 posts, read 17,112,746 times
Reputation: 11535

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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbel View Post
As much as you want it to be, it didn't create legal precedent. It was a court order, nothing more, nothing less. The scope of that court order was not as wide as Maine asked for and was completely specific to Kaci Hickox's case.
Even great things have small beginnings.
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Old 11-01-2014, 09:14 PM
 
26,507 posts, read 15,088,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Do you think there is no scientific reason to quarantine military personnel leaving the West African countries where they have been building Ebola treatment hospitals?

The same quarantine principles are applied to the soldiers and to people in the US. The politicians wanted to go beyond what is necessary.

People who die from Ebola have been left in the streets there.

Troops returning home are at low risk, but not zero risk. There is scientific reason to quarantine them.

In addition, they are brought home in units.That means not just individuals to monitor, but maybe several hundred. If one Kaci Hickox can upset the economy of a small town in Maine, what would happen if you brought 300 soldiers back to a military base? They rejoin their families and their kids are told (with no scientific reason to do so) to stay home from school? People say they will avoid local businesses until the 21 days are up?

The military can short-circuit all the hassle by just waiting three weeks to bring the soldiers home, monitoring temps while they do. It's the same thing returning health care workers are asked to do.

People keep asking me if I am an Obama supporter. No. I find him glib and well spoken but an ineffectual leader at home and abroad.
You keep missing obvious points made - anything for Obama?


Obama Administration: It is against science for state governments to quarantine people for 21 days without letting them out in public.

Obama Administration: It is scientific for the national government (military) to quarantine people for 21 days without letting them out in public.

The Flock: I don't see a contradiction, Obama is hottttttttt!

Last edited by michiganmoon; 11-01-2014 at 10:05 PM..
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Old 11-01-2014, 09:23 PM
 
13,303 posts, read 7,875,111 times
Reputation: 2144
Default Germ Warfare Or Germ Welfare?

"The desperate fight to stop contagion: How government gene sleuths prevented an untreatable superbug outbreak in Washington DC after six died at top research hospital"

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

PUBLISHED: 17:35 EST, 22 August 2012 | UPDATED: 05:18 EST, 23 August 2012
•
"The frantic race to find a cure for a superbug that killed six people as it raged in America's leading research hospital has been revealed for the first time."

"Mystified doctors at the National Institutes of Health struggled to contain the spread of a multi-drug resistant superbug during 2011 as they locked down the 243-bed clinic in a leafy Washington D.C. suburb."

"And just like in the film 'Contagion' that documents an outbreak of a deadly virus, researchers struggled to isolate the DNA of the bacteria as they turned detectives trying to find the source of the disease."

"Dr. Tara Palmore, deputy hospital epidemiologist at the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center, (left), and Dr. Julie Segre, a geneticist with the National Human Genome Research Institute, pose at the NIH Clinical Center in Bethesda."

"Over six frightening months, the deadly germ spread."

"Pretty soon, a patient a week was catching the bug. Scientists at the National Institutes of Health locked down patients, cleaned with bleach, even ripped out plumbing — and still the germ persisted."

"By the end, 18 people harbored the dangerous germ, and six died of bloodstream infections from it."

"Another five made it through the outbreak only to die from the diseases that brought them to NIH's world-famous campus in the first place."

"It took gene detectives teasing apart the bacteria's DNA to solve the germ's wily spread, a CSI-like saga with lessons for hospitals everywhere as they struggle to contain the growing threat of superbugs.
It all stemmed from a single patient carrying a fairly new superbug known as KPC — Klebsiella pneumoniae that resists treatment by one of the last lines of defense, antibiotics called carbapenems.
'We never want this to happen again,' said Dr. Tara Palmore, deputy hospital epidemiologist at the NIH Clinical Center."

"Dr. Tara Palmore (left) and Dr. Julie Segre battled a deadly superbug that spread through the nation's leading research hospital, killing six patients before it could be stopped
Infections at health care facilities are one of the nation's leading causes of preventable death, claiming an estimated 99,000 lives a year."

"They're something of a silent killer, as hospitals fearful of lawsuits don't like to publicly reveal when they outfox infection control — yet no hospital is immune."

"Wednesday, government researchers published an unusually candid account of last year's outbreak, with some advice: Fast sequencing of a germ's genome, its full DNA, may be essential."

"It can reveal how drug-resistant bacteria are spreading so that doctors can protect other patients.
'This is not an easy story to tell,' said Dr. Julie Segre, a senior investigator at NIH's National Human Genome Research Institute."

She led the genetic sleuthing that found the bug hiding in sink drains and, most chilling, even in a ventilator that had been cleaned with bleach.
Infection-control specialists at other hospitals called this detailed anatomy of an outbreak, published in the journal Science Translational Medicine, important to share.

"Gwyneth Paltrow in Contagion: The outbreak of the drug-resistant superbug baffled and worried doctors at the National Institutes of Health."

"Mystified doctors at the National Institutes of Health struggled to contain the spread of a multi-drug resistant superbug as they locked down the 243-bed clinic in a leafy Washington D.C. suburb."

'They were able to demonstrate that this sneaky little bug was able to stay alive and get transmitted in ways they hadn't quite predicted before they had the detailed genetic information,' said Dr. Sara Cosgrove, associate hospital epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins University. 'It's very revealing.'

'Absolutely this could happen in any hospital,' said Dr. Deverick Anderson, co-director of a Duke University infection control network that advises smaller community hospitals."

'This is really exciting stuff, cutting-edge technology, to try and better understand how these infections get spread,' he added.

That in turn may lead to new protections, important because 'there's something that's very, very wrong about going to a hospital and becoming more ill.'

"Normally, the Klebsiella bacteria live in human intestines and don't harm people with healthy immune systems."

"But the multidrug-resistant strain named KPC has emerged over the past decade to become a fast-growing threat in intensive care units, spreading easily between very ill people and killing half of those it sickens."

"Worse, people can carry KPC without symptoms unless the germs slip into the urinary tract or bloodstream — theirs or the person's in the next bed — through a catheter or surgical wound."

Scientists and researchers at the National Institutes of Health released the story into the public to act as a warning for other hospitals across the United States."

"The 243-bed NIH Clinical Center, in Washington's suburbs, is a unique hospital, only treating people enrolled in government research studies."

"So on June 13, 2011, a research nurse carefully checked the medical records as a New York City hospital transferred a study participant who had become critically ill with a rare lung disease."

"The nurse found that the patient had KPC as well."

"The woman went into strict isolation: Everyone entering her room donned a protective gown and gloves and rigorously washed their hands."

"Her medical equipment got special decontamination. All other patients in the ICU had their throats and groins tested regularly to see if the bug was spreading."

"All seemed OK. The woman recovered, and went home on July 15."

"Fast forward three weeks. Now a man with cancer has KPC despite never crossing paths with Patient No. 1. Ten days later, a woman with an immune disease fell ill, too. Both died of the infection. Did they arrive carrying their own KPC bacteria, or did that first patient's germ somehow escape into the hospital?"
Standard tests couldn't tell. Segre, the geneticist, turned to DNA."

"As bacteria multiply, mistakes appear and are repaired in their genetic code. Sequencing that genome allowed Segre to follow differences in single genetic letters like a trail of the germ's transmission and evolution."

"Klebsiella pneumoniae bacteria live in the intestines and lungs and may cause pneumonia, meningitis, and other diseases."

"Sure enough, the KPC originated from the New York patient despite NIH's precautions."

"Testing bacteria from the 17 additional patients who ultimately caught it shows the KPC was transmitted three separate times from Patient No. 1, and then spread more widely."

"Even this sophisticated technology couldn't prove exactly how transmission occurred. But it turns out that Patient 3 had been in the ICU at the same time as the New York woman and really was the next infected, silently carrying the bug longer before becoming sick."

"That was enough time for Patient 3's infection to spread to Patient 2, who just got sick faster."

"Meanwhile, NIH was making big changes. All the ICU patients underwent more invasive testing, using rectal swabs, to check for silent germ carriers."

"A new wall created a separate ICU to house them. Doctors, nurses, even janitors assigned there could work nowhere else, and monitors were paid to make sure everyone followed infection-control rules."

"Yet a patient a week was either becoming infected or found to be a silent carrier of the same KPC strain.
'Honestly, we were very scared at that point,' Segre recalled."


"The researchers at the National Institutes of Health discovered that the source of the infection was New York City."

"Test after test never found the bug on hospital workers' hands. Tainted objects like the ventilator couldn't be ruled out — but NIH adopted more complex and expensive decontamination, using robot-like machines to spray germ-killing hydrogen peroxide into the tiniest of crevices in all affected rooms and equipment."

"Still, November brought more bad news: The outbreak strain had escaped the ICU, as two patients who'd never been there now were carrying it."

"A new isolation room was built, and all 200-plus patients in the hospital started undergoing rectal testing."

"The outbreak now is over, the last carrier found in December."

"But NIH isn't dropping its guard. The isolation room remains, used every time one of the seven outbreak survivors returns to the hospital for their ongoing research studies — because they still carry the strain."

"Those rectal tests continue, hospital-wide once a month, to be sure no new KPC strain sneaks in."

"Bacterial sequencing is becoming fast and cheap enough for most large hospitals to use during tough outbreaks, said Dr. Lance Peterson, microbiology and infectious disease director at NorthShore University HealthSystem in Evanston, Ill."

"But another lesson is how much it takes to guard against these bugs sneaking in in the first place. Peterson said his hospital does weekly rectal testing of every ICU patient as a precaution."

'There's better technology becoming available for your hospital to prevent these bacteria from spreading, and this is what you should expect from your hospital,' he said."

Contagion avoided: How government gene sleuths stopped a superbug outbreak after six died at top research hospital | Daily Mail Online
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Old 11-01-2014, 09:29 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,444 posts, read 7,021,009 times
Reputation: 4601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
Very nicely stated by the judge
That was well stated. Do you have a link to the actual order?
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Old 11-01-2014, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,110 posts, read 41,292,919 times
Reputation: 45175
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
Obama Administration: It is against science for state governments to quarantine people for 21 days without letting them out in public.

Obama Administration: It is scientific for the national government (military) to quarantine people for 21 days without letting them out in public.
If you cannot see the difference between monitoring the temperature and movements of one nurse and monitoring the temperatures and movements of a bunch of soldiers, who may live in many different states, I do not think I can simplify it any further for you.

Edited to add: I thought there were more people involved in the current 21 day waiting period in Italy, but it is only 12, including one general. When they arrived in Italy, they were met by "Carabinieri in full hazmat suits." It appears the Italians have made it known they do not want these folks in their community.

U.S. Soldiers Quarantined In Italy After Returning From Aiding Ebola Patients

"Out of an abundance of caution, the Army directed a small number of military personnel (about a dozen) that recently returned to Italy to be monitored in a separate location, at their home station (Vincenza) [sic]. There has been no decision to implement this force wide and any such decision would be made by the Secretary of Defense," Defense Department spokesman Mark Wright said in a statement to The Huffington Post. "None of these individuals have shown any symptoms of exposure."
CNN notes that the Pentagon declined to describe the isolation as a quarantine, instead describing it as "controlled monitoring." However, they are not allowed to return home to the United States until the 21-day monitoring period is over."

The monitoring is the same as for Hickox. The "separate location" appears to be to assuage the fears of the Italians. Doing the monitoring before folks go home just simplifies the logistics, and the Army can station those 12 people where they are for any reason it wants to, scientific or otherwise.

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 11-01-2014 at 11:22 PM..
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Old 11-01-2014, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Meggett, SC
11,011 posts, read 11,029,970 times
Reputation: 6192
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
If you cannot see the difference between monitoring the temperature and movements of one nurse and monitoring the temperatures and movements of a bunch of soldiers, who may live in many different states, I do not think I can simplify it any further for you.

Edited to add: I thought there were more people involved in the current 21 day waiting period in Italy, but it is only 12, including one general. When they arrived in Italy, they were met by "Carabinieri in full hazmat suits." It appears the Italians have made it known they do not want these folks in their community.

U.S. Soldiers Quarantined In Italy After Returning From Aiding Ebola Patients

"Out of an abundance of caution, the Army directed a small number of military personnel (about a dozen) that recently returned to Italy to be monitored in a separate location, at their home station (Vincenza) [sic]. There has been no decision to implement this force wide and any such decision would be made by the Secretary of Defense," Defense Department spokesman Mark Wright said in a statement to The Huffington Post. "None of these individuals have shown any symptoms of exposure."
CNN notes that the Pentagon declined to describe the isolation as a quarantine, instead describing it as "controlled monitoring." However, they are not allowed to return home to the United States until the 21-day monitoring period is over."

The monitoring is the same as for Hickox. The "separate location" appears to be to assuage the fears of the Italians. Doing the monitoring before folks go home just simplifies the logistics, and the Army can station those 12 people where they are for any reason it wants to, scientific or otherwise.
suzy - of note, the DoD has decided to do the same for all returning troops from the affected countries. They made that decision some time last week but I can't recall the exact day off the top of my head. The reason they gave for doing so was because they expect troops to be in country around six months and due to the length of deployment decided to add the quarantine on as an extra measure.
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Old 11-01-2014, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,110 posts, read 41,292,919 times
Reputation: 45175
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbel View Post
suzy - of note, the DoD has decided to do the same for all returning troops from the affected countries. They made that decision some time last week but I can't recall the exact day off the top of my head. The reason they gave for doing so was because they expect troops to be in country around six months and due to the length of deployment decided to add the quarantine on as an extra measure.
Yeah, I saw that, too.

Posters here have already suggested having health care workers quarantine in country before returning, but the logisitics of that would be difficult. Where would people go? Who would monitor them?
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Old 11-02-2014, 04:30 AM
 
4,738 posts, read 4,436,809 times
Reputation: 2485
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
You keep missing obvious points made - anything for Obama?


Obama Administration: It is against science for state governments to quarantine people for 21 days without letting them out in public.

Obama Administration: It is scientific for the national government (military) to quarantine people for 21 days without letting them out in public.

The Flock: I don't see a contradiction, Obama is hottttttttt!
Obama is being a #@## [kitty cat] when it comes to military.

Though technically, I would think the military is less trust worthy than healthcare workers regarding day to day monitoring
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Long Island
57,314 posts, read 26,236,916 times
Reputation: 15650
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUTGR View Post
That was well stated. Do you have a link to the actual order?
No I do not other than the summary reported in the news, monitoring, coordinate travel and notification of changes. There is another hearing Tuesday.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:51 AM
 
26,507 posts, read 15,088,692 times
Reputation: 14666
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
If you cannot see the difference between monitoring the temperature and movements of one nurse and monitoring the temperatures and movements of a bunch of soldiers, who may live in many different states, I do not think I can simplify it any further for you.

Edited to add: I thought there were more people involved in the current 21 day waiting period in Italy, but it is only 12, including one general. When they arrived in Italy, they were met by "Carabinieri in full hazmat suits." It appears the Italians have made it known they do not want these folks in their community.

U.S. Soldiers Quarantined In Italy After Returning From Aiding Ebola Patients

"Out of an abundance of caution, the Army directed a small number of military personnel (about a dozen) that recently returned to Italy to be monitored in a separate location, at their home station (Vincenza) [sic]. There has been no decision to implement this force wide and any such decision would be made by the Secretary of Defense," Defense Department spokesman Mark Wright said in a statement to The Huffington Post. "None of these individuals have shown any symptoms of exposure."
CNN notes that the Pentagon declined to describe the isolation as a quarantine, instead describing it as "controlled monitoring." However, they are not allowed to return home to the United States until the 21-day monitoring period is over."

The monitoring is the same as for Hickox. The "separate location" appears to be to assuage the fears of the Italians. Doing the monitoring before folks go home just simplifies the logistics, and the Army can station those 12 people where they are for any reason it wants to, scientific or otherwise.
Sorry, more dodges and excuses to cover up for Obama's hypocrisy.

What is it about Obama that you are willing to cover up for his blatantly hypocritical acts? Do you think it helps the country when we excuse hypocrisies from our "leaders?"


He is allowing the military to quarantine people for 21 days -- no bike rides out in public -- based specifically on science.

He is criticizing states for giving the exact same policy -- based specifically that it is against science.

Hagel announces Ebola quarantine - CNN.com



Quote:
The policy creates a separate set of rules for military members than what the White House has pushed for civilian health care workers. President Obama has argued that civilian volunteer health workers returning from aid trips to Africa should not be quarantined and the White House has urged states not to impose their own quarantine policies. Science, Obama has said, does not support the need for a quarantine.

Asked to explain the discrepancy between civilians and the military, he said Tuesday service members have been sent to the Ebola region by him and health workers are going as volunteers.

"It's part of their mission that's been assigned to them by their commanders and ultimately by me, the commander-in-chief," the president told reporters on the White House's South Lawn on Tuesday."So we don't expect to have similar rules for our military as we do for civilians," Obama said. "They are already, by definition, if they're in the military under more circumscribed conditions."

It is against science for states to quarantine people out of public and he opposes quarantines not based on science. When asked why he is then imposing the same restriction that he opposes on scientific grounds for the military - he brushes it off as that is part of the military mission - ignoring the science component.
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