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Well, once again, by trying to keep items from the public the powers that be have merely piqued the interest of that same public. I had no idea the Ghost Gunner existed and now I want one and in the end, the company will sell more than they would have otherwise. Kinda like how the press got all crazy about those "plastic guns" and propelled an unknown Austrian gunmaker right to the top of the gun world. Good work, guys!
Normally CNC machines ship by freight truck anyway. Its like the gay that baker will not bake a cake for; go to another bakery .People just love making other do things and starting conflicts now days it seems. Then wander why there are much conflict in the world and people picking sides.
I'm surprised this doesn't violate some kind of common carrier laws. Aren't common carriers required to treat all customers that meet the requirements (in this case non-hazardous, legal, etc.) the same? Meaning an airline can't refuse passage to someone traveling for work while selling a ticket to someone traveling for pleasure with everything else exactly the same.
No. The specific thing is the Ghost Gunner. That they ship somewhat similar things is utterly irrelevant.
It's completely relevant, a difference that makes no difference is no different. If UPS and Fedex already transport tools and equipment that can be used to manufacture firearms, and even completed firearms themselves, then the reasons that they're claiming are a fallacy.
So? What's wrong with that? A Christian bookstore can refuse to carry a book titled "God Loves Gay Marriage" - and a gay bookstore can refuse to carry a book titled "God Hates Gay People."
But this isn't a retailer, it's a shipping company, and could that shipping company determine it was not going to ship "God Loves Gay Marriage", or "God Hates Gay People", even though it ships millions of books around the globe? Could it for example refuse to ship copies of the Bible, or Qu'ran, because you know liability?
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Originally Posted by hammertime33
And let's not pretend they're refusing to ship this product out of some hatred of guns or some anti-gun policy. UPS and FedEX are refusing to ship this specific product out of a fear shipping this specific product will expose them to legal liability.
And the two mills I provided that ship Fedex/UPS expose them to the same exact legal liability. For instance if someone used UPS/Fedex to transport 100lbs of Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer to their home, then they used it to make a bomb and blow up the local church, would UPS/Fedex be liable? No, they're just a courier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33
These two companies each have their own rooms full of employee lawyers. Both sets of lawyers independently came to the conclusion that shipping this specific product could expose their companies to legal liability. I'm not saying these rooms full of lawyers are right, but they probably know a hell of a lot more about this than either you or me.
I'm not buying the liability, and a room full of lawyers generally will come to the immediate conclusion of No. Indeed a good company lawyer I'm friends with had a notice on his door that said "if you're asking whether we can do something legally my first answer will always be no".
Normally CNC machines ship by freight truck anyway. Its like the gay that baker will not bake a cake for; go to another bakery .People just love making other do things and starting conflicts now days it seems. Then wander why there are much conflict in the world and people picking sides.
The big difference is that every town has multiple options for bakeries. If one doesn't want to do business, fine, just go down the block. Not a significant inconvenience. However, when you're talking shipping common parcels (not heavy freight) there are only a couple common choices-FedEx and UPS. They have a near monopoly on the industry (well-diopoloy anyway). Given that they both made the same decision to discriminate against one manufacturer of a legal product, they are not only acting in a way that restrains trade, they are doing so in a method that demonstrates collusion and a deliberate act. This is exactly the sort of thing federal anti-trust, as well as anti-discrimination laws should prevent.
Plenty of comparable options. Lets say a company decides to make choices based on what politics they approve of, such as those companies did. And lets say that FedEx and UPS happened to be run by conservatives. Can they decide they won't do business with companies owned by Democrats? Refuse to to business with the DNC?
Or alternatively, if they will deliver any books from Amazon...except "Gay sex for Dummies", butt plugs or maybe the Koran (or however the heck you want to spell it), that's not discrimination, right? Even though they deliver other books. Perfectly fine. It's just specific products.
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 02-25-2015 at 07:17 PM..
It's completely relevant, a difference that makes no difference is no different. If UPS and Fedex already transport tools and equipment that can be used to manufacture firearms, and even completed firearms themselves, then the reasons that they're claiming are a fallacy.
But this isn't a retailer, it's a shipping company, and could that shipping company determine it was not going to ship "God Loves Gay Marriage", or "God Hates Gay People", even though it ships millions of books around the globe? Could it for example refuse to ship copies of the Bible, or Qu'ran, because you know liability?
And the two mills I provided that ship Fedex/UPS expose them to the same exact legal liability. For instance if someone used UPS/Fedex to transport 100lbs of Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer to their home, then they used it to make a bomb and blow up the local church, would UPS/Fedex be liable? No, they're just a courier.
I'm not buying the liability, and a room full of lawyers generally will come to the immediate conclusion of No. Indeed a good company lawyer I'm friends with had a notice on his door that said "if you're asking whether we can do something legally my first answer will always be no".
If anything, IF their actions are even legal, they are opening themselves up to further liability, not protecting themselves from it. If they decide not to deliver one product because there is a faint chance it could be used for a illegal act, they are saying they have the right and responsibility to do so. By the same logic, ANY product can be used to make an illegal product or commit an illegal act. Want to buy a piece of pipe and have it shipped? Nope, might make a pipe bomb out if it-FedEx, what were you thinking? Or a drill press and a file? UPS, you should have known that would be used to make a gun. A pressure cooker? Come on guys, you know these are used to make bombs. A baseball bat? YOu should have known that it could be used to bash someone's head in. From a standpoint of legal liability it seems foolish and they have set themselves up as arbitrators of the public's safety.
But they do ship that specific thing, they ship CNC machines and tools all day every day to all parts of the United States and abroad. There is nothing functionally specific in the "specific thing" that makes it any different to any of those CNC machines they ship all day every day to all parts of the United States and abroad. The only difference is how that "specific thing" is marketed.
It is entirely an identical scenario as UPS/Fedex refusing to ship a cake marketed as specifically a same sex marriage wedding cake. There they would be refusing to ship (so will not ship to anyone) that companies cakes (a specific thing, even though UPS/Fedex ship cakes) not because they're different to any other cakes, but because they're marketed at same sex weddings .
If they refuse to provide this service to anyone, they are not discriminating against any particular person.
They are denying every person equally.
That is exactly what they are doing with this item.
If they refuse to provide this service to anyone, they are not discriminating against any particular person.
They are denying every person equally.
That is exactly what they are doing with this item.
How about if they decide they won't deliver books involving gay sex, but will deliver those about straight sex? As long as they aren't delivering those books to anyone, it's OK, right?
Is this CNC machine only used to produce guns? Or is it capable of also producing other things? If it is capable of producing other things UPS and FedEx aren't refusing to ship anything to only gun makers but also makers of other things this CNC machine can make. If my statement is correct there is no discrimination against just gun makers but not discrimination against anyone who chose to buy this product for any reason what so ever. Is it not possible for this CNC machine to produce anything other than guns?
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and in the end, the company will sell more than they would have otherwise. Kinda like how the press got all crazy about those "plastic guns" and propelled an unknown Austrian gunmaker right to the top of the gun world. Good work, guys!
