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ResidigingHere2007, why don't you tell me the positive benefits of government, and how it has helped black people as a whole. I would like to hear 5 good things that big government has done for Black Americans. Also my viewpoints are my own. Almost any anarchist or anarcho-capitalist are white, and most of them flirt with ideas of racial realism and white nationalism, or the flat out don't address racial issues at all. So I take offense to the idea that I just read some random article and decided to come up with my point of view. I regularly argue with others who have a very different point of view just to show how strong I am in my own viewpoints
I can fully accept that your ideas are your own but I'm sure they were influenced by some random internet material you surveyed. You seem to be very much into an online environment and heavily media influenced to where you believe that stuff people say online or stuff you find online is the truth about black people in this country. That is fine for your to believe, but IMO it is ridiculous. Just like you are entitled to your beliefs and they are your own, I am so entitled to my own and they belong to me.
In regards to the government and benefits to black people specifically, that is a silly comment IMO. I am black....so let me tell you some things I'm happy that government has "done" for me.
1 - I have worked for or with government agencies (via consulting work) so I have earned an income from government
2 - I have a car that I drive on the freeway quite often to vacation and to visit family - government built it
3 - I live in an area with public schools of which my kids attend (black people have attended public schools in my area since the 1850s when the school system started in this city) government provides them and I am happy with the schools. I also obtained a K-12 education in the same district.
Those are just a few things that "government" has done for me as a black person. I will also add that I specifically stated that I do not feel the government can "fix" anything for me in my personal life. Also that a majority of black people also do not feel that government needs to fix our problems. Most of us do not have too many problems. I don't have hardly any problems except what you could call "first world" problems.
In regards to anarcho-capitalist, IMO it is an idiotic concept. Others have already informed you, and I'm sure you are aware that there has never been an anarcho-capitalist society on earth other than countries run by warlords. They "system" you want to institute is not a "system." Anarchism is basically the "strongest takes all" philosphy and will simply mean the people who have the most weapons/guns or who are physically stronger will rule the day, basically it would turn us into wild animals.
I'm glad you're not one of those reality resistors.
United States of America's history reveals a long nearly unbroken line of resistance to Civil Rights.
Some folks resisted the outcomes & natural consequences of the American Civil War therefore Jim Crow laws were created to follow the 1800–1866 Black Codes, which had previously restricted the civil rights & civil liberties of African Americans.
During the Reconstruction period of 1865–1877, federal law provided civil rights protection in the United States for freedmen, African Americans who had formerly been slaves, & former free blacks.
Some folks resisted the Civil Rights Act of 1875's guarantee that everyone, regardless of race, color, or previous condition of servitude, was entitled to the same treatment in public accommodations, such as inns, public transportation, theaters, & other places of recreation.
Segregation, Jim Crow laws & 'separate but equal' dogma were about maintaining or attempting to recover rights based on white supremacy that were lost when the Confederate States of America lost the American Civil War.
The Civil Rights of the 50s & 60s came (1950s & 60s) nearly 100 years after the Civil Rights Act of 1875!
& the OP? Seriously?
Thanks. I'm someone who looks at things in a historical perspective. I might have mentioned this to you earlier. A quote from Jorge Agustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana y Borrás, also known as George Santayana. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
One can see how history repeated itself. Resistance to the same rights for all. Alot of people went into the Civil Rights era kicking and screaming. The South went into Reconstruction kicking and screaming. And as you mention, Jim Crow was a continuation of the racial hierarchy system. The idea was to keep people down. The idea of denying people rights was to keep people down. This is why Civil Rights was needed. It was a response to the terrorism, the disenfranchisement, purposely being locked out of the American dream.
I can fully accept that your ideas are your own but I'm sure they were influenced by some random internet material you surveyed.
Again there you go with the condescending opinions. Listen, I've been a Libertarian since 2004. I'm a Libertarian because it's a way of life I believe in. It also mirrors the state of mind I've always had about myself. I've always been an advocate of self-reliance, and self-sufficiency. And no one has your best interest at heart but yourself. And as a black man who never really fit any stereotypes, I understood the value of individualism. You may think that I was swayed by some internet article a few months ago, but the very core of me is emotionally tied to my political philosophy.
And because you say that, you sound a lot like the whole "you ain't black enough". or the "oh brotha, you're mislead" crowd. The crowd who believes that black people should all be philosophically aligned based on nothing but skin color.
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You seem to be very much into an online environment and heavily media influenced to where you believe that stuff people say online or stuff you find online is the truth about black people in this country.
Who isn't influenced by online and media these days? It's the largest sample of human opinion you're ever going to encounter anywhere. Why do you think the internet has really transformed statistics and marketing? Because it's an astronomical sample size.
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That is fine for your to believe, but IMO it is ridiculous. Just like you are entitled to your beliefs and they are your own, I am so entitled to my own and they belong to me.
you may believe I am ridiculous, but it's consistent, and my criticism about government in the black community are valid
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In regards to the government and benefits to black people specifically, that is a silly comment IMO. I am black....so let me tell you some things I'm happy that government has "done" for me.
And there you go trying to validate your subjective experience as reality.
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1 - I have worked for or with government agencies (via consulting work) so I have earned an income from government
So have I. But that's you and me. What does this have to do with what value the government give to black people as a whole?
A little bit about me, I worked for the government for 3 years. It was the most backwards, dysfunctionally run thing I've ever seen. They wasted money like it was going out of style, their technology was WAY out of date, and they just played a lot of politics to the bottomline. No private business could waste money like that and still be in business. But the government can.
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2 - I have a car that I drive on the freeway quite often to vacation and to visit family - government built it
Tired old argument from statist. you're just grasping at straws on this one. Moving on.
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3 - I live in an area with public schools of which my kids attend (black people have attended public schools in my area since the 1850s when the school system started in this city) government provides them and I am happy with the schools. I also obtained a K-12 education in the same district.
This is where you blatantly like to stay ignorant. Listen, if me and my girlfriend (who is also black) had a kid and granted we still kept our salary, put our kid in public school, they would probably get a superb public school education. But MOST black people don't make what we make. And they won't be able to put their kids in a great school district, or get them into a great school at all. So they'll get shoddy at best public education.
This is where I think you are trying to justify the government heavily because YOUR life is great with government, no everyone elses. And you mentioned you work with government, so you have vested interest in the government staying around. And I think you bring a lot of this vested interest into your debates, because you really can't talk about how government has done anything for black people that they can't do for themselves better.
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Those are just a few things that "government" has done for me as a black person. I will also add that I specifically stated that I do not feel the government can "fix" anything for me in my personal life. Also that a majority of black people also do not feel that government needs to fix our problems. Most of us do not have too many problems. I don't have hardly any problems except what you could call "first world" problems.
Really? Black people do not think government needs to fix our problems? Of course they do. Why do you think there is a congressional black caucus. Why do you think guys like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jacksons work so closely with the federal government. Who do you think the Black Lives Matter advocates are fighting for and asking for rights from? Now we can point to many black movements, most of them rely on the government giving them something. And this is something a large majority of black people support. Even if you act like you're against Black Lives Matter, most black people will jump on you and call you all sorts of coons.
This is why when Bernie Sanders came out offering solutions "for black people" black people got way behind him. Don't come here and tell me that blacks aren't expecting some sort fix from government, they are. Their voting proves this.
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In regards to anarcho-capitalist, IMO it is an idiotic concept.
Really tell me what you actually know about anarcho-capitalism?
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Others have already informed you, and I'm sure you are aware that there has never been an anarcho-capitalist society on earth other than countries run by warlords.
And unarmed population of course will be overtaken by people with guns. In every case the Warlords took over because they had better weapons and more resources. Now if you had suggested anarcho-capitalism to someone back in the 1700s, well it would have been suspectable to warlords.
These days anyone can defend themselves, anyone has access to information, so it's actually quite impossible for someone to grow into power unless people voluntarily put them in power.
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They "system" you want to institute is not a "system." Anarchism is basically the "strongest takes all" philosphy and will simply mean the people who have the most weapons/guns or who are physically stronger will rule the day, basically it would turn us into wild animals.
Actually it's funny you say that, because you deal with anarcho capitalism every day, and you don't even know it. The anarcho-capitalist model lives on the internet. The internet is huge, massive, and self-governing. There is no super network where all computers get their directives and commands from. Rather networks communicate with each other based on common protocols which are based on private standards not public ones. And no one mandates a minimum amount of security for networks. But rather networks in their own self interest secure themselves.
And guess what? No one rose up to eclipse and take over the internet. Despite some networks having higher bandwidth, more security, and more money. It is so much of a meritocracy, that no one can remain so big that they can't be knocked off of their throne. you may look at facebook as a great big network, but no one feels that someone can't just knock facebook off their throne. They have to keep innovating to stay relevant.
And this is an anarcho-capitalist society for humans. Unless you have coercive government force, you really can't have people rise up at all. Because eventually they'll also be taken down. You assume that people don't want to just mind their own business. But I think without government, people will just mind their own business. It is the government that tells us to stay in other people's business all of the time. Without government, I think people would just chill out and do what's best for them.
I'm a Libertarian because it's a way of life I believe in. It also mirrors the state of mind I've always had about myself. I've always been an advocate of self-reliance, and self-sufficiency. And no one has your best interest at heart but yourself. And as a black man who never really fit any stereotypes, I understood the value of individualism. You may think that I was swayed by some internet article a few months ago, but the very core of me is emotionally tied to my political philosophy.
Just curious..., do you necessarily need to be a Libertarian if you are an advocate of self-reliance and self-sufficiency? I too am such an advocate, and I too believe "no one has your best interest at heart but yourself." I value individualism, but I'm no Libertarian, so I'm just curious...
Do Libertarians believe those notions are strictly Libertarian and/or that you must be a Libertarian if you believe in those things?
What happens if/when you or a loved one is not able to be self-reliant, for example, do you need to stop being Libertarian? What do those things mean? Does being self-reliant mean you don't need public education for example? Does it mean you have no responsibility to others? What of the next generation, children?
The way the Black Panther Party did it in the 70s.
Of course, the government will respond in the same way.
Correct.
I was replying to the claim of "we don't need government, we can assert our own rights".
My point being that without the rule of law, which is to say government, you're only left with violence to defend your "rights" should they be curtailed in some way by someone else. No?
If so, then we are subjected to "might makes right" from a purely physical aspect.
Again there you go with the condescending opinions. Listen, I've been a Libertarian since 2004. I'm a Libertarian because it's a way of life I believe in. It also mirrors the state of mind I've always had about myself. I've always been an advocate of self-reliance, and self-sufficiency. And no one has your best interest at heart but yourself. And as a black man who never really fit any stereotypes, I understood the value of individualism. You may think that I was swayed by some internet article a few months ago, but the very core of me is emotionally tied to my political philosophy.
And because you say that, you sound a lot like the whole "you ain't black enough". or the "oh brotha, you're mislead" crowd. The crowd who believes that black people should all be philosophically aligned based on nothing but skin color.
Not intending to be condescending. You specifically questioned me in your post so I responded.
How did you decide to become a Libertarian? How did you learn about Libertarianism? Was it via study of books at the library? Personal friends/colleagues who told you about Libertarianism? Or did you see someone else speaking on a forum/the internet about it and decided it fit how you feel society should flow?
My point is that your discovery of Libertarianism, more than likely was the last question I posed above. And IMO there is no problem with that as long as you took that internet idea and used it to study the history of Libertarian ideology. I don't believe you have done so. You cannot change my mind on that. I see a lot of people both IRL and online who all of the sudden agree with or affiliate themselves with Libertarianism after reading a random internet link.
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Who isn't influenced by online and media these days? It's the largest sample of human opinion you're ever going to encounter anywhere. Why do you think the internet has really transformed statistics and marketing? Because it's an astronomical sample size.
Again, I didn't say it was a bad thing and IMO a majority of people are influenced by media and the internet, however, I also believe a majority of those people also do not critically think about the messages/information they receive from either of those sources and hardly anyone will investigate news stories or the POVs of media persons to see if they are true or not. IMO the internet has greatly, further exposed the ignorance of the populous and FWIW, that is the only thing that frightens me personally - that a large amount of people are idiots and they believe anything they see/read without question/investigation and they are willing to make drastic, dangerous actions and incite chaos due to their ignorance about the fallacy of a majority of media and internet depictions.
Anyone who uses "reality" TV as a source of anything that is true reality for a demographic IMO is buying into my idea of ignorance described above and they are people to be cautious about in our society.
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you may believe I am ridiculous, but it's consistent, and my criticism about government in the black community are valid
Ridiculous consistency is still ridiculous.
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And there you go trying to validate your subjective experience as reality.
You specifically asked me what government has done for black people. I am black so I can easily provide examples of what has been done for me by government. I, unlike yourself, know that I cannot speak on what 40 million black people feel or experience in regards to our government.
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So have I. But that's you and me. What does this have to do with what value the government give to black people as a whole?
A little bit about me, I worked for the government for 3 years. It was the most backwards, dysfunctionally run thing I've ever seen. They wasted money like it was going out of style, their technology was WAY out of date, and they just played a lot of politics to the bottomline. No private business could waste money like that and still be in business. But the government can.
I have worked for both government and private businesses and both are inept and wasteful in their own ways. I work in supply chain/procurement so I see first hand the waste of government and private organizations. They really aren't all that different.
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Tired old argument from statist. you're just grasping at straws on this one. Moving on.
Yet you feel we should defend the Constitution....
And FWIW, IMO it is better to be a statist than anarchist.
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This is where you blatantly like to stay ignorant. Listen, if me and my girlfriend (who is also black) had a kid and granted we still kept our salary, put our kid in public school, they would probably get a superb public school education. But MOST black people don't make what we make. And they won't be able to put their kids in a great school district, or get them into a great school at all. So they'll get shoddy at best public education.
Most people in general go to public schools, including black people and most of us turn out fine. I already know you have a bias against public schools, that is your personal problem.
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This is where I think you are trying to justify the government heavily because YOUR life is great with government, no everyone elses. And you mentioned you work with government, so you have vested interest in the government staying around. And I think you bring a lot of this vested interest into your debates, because you really can't talk about how government has done anything for black people that they can't do for themselves better.
You specifically asked me about government. If you don't want me to respond, then don't ask me about it.
I do not currently work for the government so I have no vested interest in it as an income source. However, I also am no ignorant enough to believe that within my lifetime our country will not have a government based upon the constitution of the US. Do you really think that your fringe idea of black people absolving ourselves from society by way of government services will ever occur? If you do, you really are not living in reality.
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Really? Black people do not think government needs to fix our problems? Of course they do. Why do you think there is a congressional black caucus. Why do you think guys like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jacksons work so closely with the federal government. Who do you think the Black Lives Matter advocates are fighting for and asking for rights from? Now we can point to many black movements, most of them rely on the government giving them something. And this is something a large majority of black people support. Even if you act like you're against Black Lives Matter, most black people will jump on you and call you all sorts of coons.
BLM are not a part of the government....
Neither Al Sharpton nor Jessee Jackson are part of the government either and you have been told, so are aware that black people by and large do not pay much attention to them. I actually do know quite a bit about their activities and IMO they do not "work closely with the federal government." They get depicted in pictures with government officials or targeting government officials, however, neither of them works with the federal government. They rely on their "non-profit" organizations for their income and activities.
There is a CBC because the black elected officials in our federal government chose to create a caucus to address the shared interest of their represented districts and what they feel are issues that need to be addressed for black Americans at large. They are elected representatives. Unfortunately for you, we do have elected officials. There are over 50 caucuses in the USA congress. All of them are filled with elected officials.
And again, all black people do not think government needs to "fix our problems." Again, I do not have any problems that government can fix for me. What problems does the government need to fix for me since you are all knowing about black people???
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This is why when Bernie Sanders came out offering solutions "for black people" black people got way behind him. Don't come here and tell me that blacks aren't expecting some sort fix from government, they are. Their voting proves this.
Bernie Sanders is a career politician, no different than the CBC representatives and therefore he has to appeal to the voter base in order to get support. He is actually a socialist on many fronts, meaning he will provide "solutions" and "stuff" that other candidates won't provide. However, he has never garnered wide range support amongst "black voters." So he is not an example of black people wanting government to "fix our problems." He has not done well with black voters nationwide.
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Really tell me what you actually know about anarcho-capitalism?
I already provided you information in the previous post.
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And unarmed population of course will be overtaken by people with guns. In every case the Warlords took over because they had better weapons and more resources. Now if you had suggested anarcho-capitalism to someone back in the 1700s, well it would have been suspectable to warlords.
These days anyone can defend themselves, anyone has access to information, so it's actually quite impossible for someone to grow into power unless people voluntarily put them in power.
LOL, again, that Libertarian naivete is showing. Why are there warlords in other parts of the world in 2016 if "anyone" can defend themselves. Why are mercenaries and militias wrecking havoc on various groups of people all over the world right now...
It is occurring because of anarchy. Whenever there is not some sort of government that people buy into and agree to abide by, chaos ensues.
In our country, many people do have guns. However, many people do not. I have a gun, but I don't have a high powered machine gun or an AK-47 so if the government collasped and people panicked (people panic all the time) I would be in danger due to not having a treasure trove of weapons. As a woman, like woman all over the world, I would be at high risk for being sexually assaulted and killed as would my 7 year old daughter.
This all goes back to my questions above in regards to your discovery of libertarianism. It is not based on the reality of the human condition or behavior. No matter how evolved you feel humans are as a species, we are basically animals and we need society's rules and laws (i.e. a government) to keep us in line. The absence of that compromise to abide by rules and laws is chaos and it truly is a survival of the fittest scenario based solely on weapons and brute strength.
You need to study more history instead of politics. All sorts of political ideologies seem good on paper/screen but if played out in reality, they do not always do so well. I have told you before I feel that Libertarianism and especially anarchist ideology is a direct opposite of Communism and extreme forms of socialism. Both of these ideologies seem good on paper. In reality, both of them don't/wouldn't work well when strictly adhered to.
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Actually it's funny you say that, because you deal with anarcho capitalism every day, and you don't even know it. The anarcho-capitalist model lives on the internet. The internet is huge, massive, and self-governing. There is no super network where all computers get their directives and commands from. Rather networks communicate with each other based on common protocols which are based on private standards not public ones. And no one mandates a minimum amount of security for networks. But rather networks in their own self interest secure themselves.
Again, that is the difference between you and me. I don't live on the internet.
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And guess what? No one rose up to eclipse and take over the internet. Despite some networks having higher bandwidth, more security, and more money. It is so much of a meritocracy, that no one can remain so big that they can't be knocked off of their throne. you may look at facebook as a great big network, but no one feels that someone can't just knock facebook off their throne. They have to keep innovating to stay relevant.
And this is an anarcho-capitalist society for humans. Unless you have coercive government force, you really can't have people rise up at all. Because eventually they'll also be taken down. You assume that people don't want to just mind their own business. But I think without government, people will just mind their own business. It is the government that tells us to stay in other people's business all of the time. Without government, I think people would just chill out and do what's best for them.
Human nature and networks/technology are not synonymous. People cannot be programmed to follow certain commands or formulas based on anarcho-capitalism like the internet can. The internet is not a living, breathing, thinking being.
On the bold, I actually do think that a majority of people want to mind their business. However, I am VERY well aware that a minority of people want to take over other people's business. That minority will easily find other like minded persons and they can gather together with their weapons and take over the masses, like myself who want to mind our own business.
You would say "but the masses can get together." I would respond that the masses are filled with panicky, scaredy sorts of people who will mistrust the others who want to mind our own business. Of course some of them will get together but not a huge group to battle off that minority. The minority will destroy the masses with brute force/strength and take over the businesses and then society will be under a warlord type of existence.
Again, Libertarians are very naive about human nature. It is interesting because, the internet is actually a place where you can see the scenario I described above, show itself in full armor. No matter how rational someone may view/see their POV, there is always someone out there who doesn't agree and who, if given a chance, will destroy the rational person. It is on this forum everyday (human nature), yet you ignore it.
Very interesting...
Last edited by residinghere2007; 05-11-2016 at 09:04 AM..
I was replying to the claim of "we don't need government, we can assert our own rights".
My point being that without the rule of law, which is to say government, you're only left with violence to defend your "rights" should they be curtailed in some way by someone else. No?
If so, then we are subjected to "might makes right" from a purely physical aspect.
Yeaaah, we've told him that.
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