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The problem is that the Confederacy never paid for what they had done. Confederate Generals reintegrated into society. There were no trials, no serious punishment. To my understanding, that was Lincoln's decision at the time.
Contrast that with Nazi Germany - we had the Nuremberg trials, and Germany has been in penance ever since the Holocaust. In fact, German citizens are probably more educated than American citizens on the Holocaust. It's considered a shameful part of Germany's past. Contrast that with how southerners feel about the Confederacy - how, in some schools the Civil War is the "War of Northern Aggression," how many people in the countryside fly Confederate flags...Hell, the Confederate flag is in the Mississippi state flag!
Can you imagine if Germany had decided to keep statues of Hitler and Goebbels erected in public squares? How hurtful that would be to the Jewish people?
How do you think it makes African Americans feel to have statues erected of figures that represented the defense of the incredibly vile institution that was slavery. Because that's what the Confederacy did, the Confederacy fought to defend slavery, which underpinned the economy of the slave states. I'm not pretending the Northerners were virtuous people, or even that Lincoln was, but the fact is that was what the Confederacy fought to defend.
Slavery may have been 150 years ago, but its effects have reverberated into present day. To quote the caption of the controversial Ta-Nehisi Coates article, "The Case for Reparations," - "Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy....". Slavery isn't simply something that happened a long time ago that has no effect on present day.
Jefferson and Washington were slave owners, but that's not what they stood for. They're not symbols of slavery, the way the Confederate leaders are, and the OP knows that fully well.
Should we remove Thomas Jefferson and George Washington memorials, tributes and statues, including their images on Mount Rushmore, since each owned more than 300 slaves?
No, of course not. Washington fought for the colonies (with UK) & then against UK in the Revolutionary War. & served as president. He was the only one of the Founding Fathers to emancipate his slaves - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George...s_emancipation
"Washington was the only Southern slaveholding Founding Father among the top seven[a] to emancipate his slaves after the American Revolution. Of the seven Founding Fathers, the northerners Benjamin Franklin and John Jay both owned slaves whom they freed, and Jay founded the New York Manumission Society.[27] He had a practice of freeing slaves as adults after a period of service. In 1798, the year before New York passed its gradual emancipation law, Jay still owned six slaves.[28]"
& the same article in Wiki notes that Washington owned
"Washington's background[edit]
"When Washington was eleven years old, he inherited ten slaves;[3] by the time of his death, 317 slaves lived at Mount Vernon,[4] including 123 owned by Washington, 40 leased from a neighbor, and an additional 153 "dower slaves." While these dower slaves were designated for Martha's use during her lifetime, they were part of the estate of her first husband Daniel Parke Custis, and the Washingtons could not sell or manumit them.[5] As on other plantations during that era, Washington's slaves worked from dawn until dusk unless injured or ill; they could be whipped for running away or for other infractions. They were fed, clothed, and housed as inexpensively as possible, in conditions that were probably meager.[citation needed]"
(My emphasis)
& so Washington (his widow, it was difficult to free slaves while the owner was alive, & required special permission) apparently manumitted his slaves - he couldn't free nor sell the leased nor the Custis slaves.
Jefferson was a complicated person. He came to dislike slavery, he took a Black lover, he freed some of their children, he moved to end the international slave trade, he never felt he had the funds to free all his slaves. He worried about the impact of slavery upon the political economy of the US. His engagement with slavery is one of the defining marks of his time & personality & concerns - but it's not the major one he's remembered for.
Their places in US history are secure - no poll in the World is going to change what they did.
The problem is that the Confederacy never paid for what they had done. Confederate Generals reintegrated into society. There were no trials, no serious punishment. To my understanding, that was Lincoln's decision at the time.
Contrast that with Nazi Germany - we had the Nuremberg trials, and Germany has been in penance ever since the Holocaust. In fact, German citizens are probably more educated than American citizens on the Holocaust. It's considered a shameful part of Germany's past. Contrast that with how southerners feel about the Confederacy - how, in some schools the Civil War is the "War of Northern Aggression," how many people in the countryside fly Confederate flags...Hell, the Confederate flag is in the Mississippi state flag!
Can you imagine if Germany had decided to keep statues of Hitler and Goebbels erected in public squares? How hurtful that would be to the Jewish people?
How do you think it makes African Americans feel to have statues erected of figures that represented the defense of the incredibly vile institution that was slavery. Because that's what the Confederacy did, the Confederacy fought to defend slavery, which underpinned the economy of the slave states. I'm not pretending the Northerners were virtuous people, or even that Lincoln was, but the fact is that was what the Confederacy fought to defend.
Slavery may have been 150 years ago, but its effects have reverberated into present day. To quote the caption of the controversial Ta-Nehisi Coates article, "The Case for Reparations," - "Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy....". Slavery isn't simply something that happened a long time ago that has no effect on present day.
Jefferson and Washington were slave owners yet, but that's not what they stood for. They're not symbols of slavery, the way the Confederate leaders are, and the OP knows that fully well.
Thanks for expanding on the difference.
Especially agree with the last sentence - so many people being purposefully obtuse to get a rise out of people. People can't be this dense, so I'm assuming they're just trolling.
The mother of all Tiki Torch marchers is the Statue of Liberty. That beaoch needs to be pulled down and drowned in the water. No trace of its history should remain if it satisfies the Liberal Democrat Taliban.
Republicans are already doing that: give me your tired, give me your poor, give me your huddled masses is 180 degrees from Republicans' wishes.
The problem is that the Confederacy never paid for what they had done. Confederate Generals reintegrated into society. There were no trials, no serious punishment. To my understanding, that was Lincoln's decision at the time.
Contrast that with Nazi Germany - we had the Nuremberg trials, and Germany has been in penance ever since the Holocaust. In fact, German citizens are probably more educated than American citizens on the Holocaust. It's considered a shameful part of Germany's past. Contrast that with how southerners feel about the Confederacy - how, in some schools the Civil War is the "War of Northern Aggression," how many people in the countryside fly Confederate flags...Hell, the Confederate flag is in the Mississippi state flag!
Can you imagine if Germany had decided to keep statues of Hitler and Goebbels erected in public squares? How hurtful that would be to the Jewish people?
How do you think it makes African Americans feel to have statues erected of figures that represented the defense of the incredibly vile institution that was slavery. Because that's what the Confederacy did, the Confederacy fought to defend slavery, which underpinned the economy of the slave states. I'm not pretending the Northerners were virtuous people, or even that Lincoln was, but the fact is that was what the Confederacy fought to defend.
Slavery may have been 150 years ago, but its effects have reverberated into present day. To quote the caption of the controversial Ta-Nehisi Coates article, "The Case for Reparations," - "Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy....". Slavery isn't simply something that happened a long time ago that has no effect on present day.
Jefferson and Washington were slave owners yet, but that's not what they stood for. They're not symbols of slavery, the way the Confederate leaders are, and the OP knows that fully well.
I've been trying since this thread was started to figure out how to express the difference. You have done it well. I'm not going to attack the OP. He enjoys playing devil's advocate, but is also nearly always willing to listen to those with whom he disagrees.
The mother of all Tiki Torch marchers is the Statue of Liberty. That beaoch needs to be pulled down and drowned in the water. No trace of its history should remain if it satisfies the Liberal Democrat Taliban.
Should we remove Thomas Jefferson and George Washington memorials, tributes and statues, including their images on Mount Rushmore, since each owned more than 300 slaves?
non should be removed to be honest. These statues or memorials are part of history. It was part of life 200 years ago or even 150 years ago. do the libs think we should re-write all the history books as well to fit their agenda? I hate to say the ultra left are nuts but I am beginning to think they are!!!!
Jefferson and Washington were slave owners, but that's not what they stood for. They're not symbols of slavery, the way the Confederate leaders are, and the OP knows that fully well.
Oh, please.
Do as I say not as I do.
Not everyone believes those who fought in the war or led the military were symbols of slavery. Whether you choose to believe it or not the continuation of slavery was not the only reason for the civil war and was actually just a pawn in the larger game. Slavery was also not the reason most soldiers fought and few people living in the confederate states were slave owners.
Quote:
How do you think it makes African Americans feel to have statues erected of figures that represented the defense of the incredibly vile institution that was slavery. Because that's what the Confederacy did, the Confederacy fought to defend slavery, which underpinned the economy of the slave states. I'm not pretending the Northerners were virtuous people, or even that Lincoln was, but the fact is that was what the Confederacy fought to defend.
I expect people to understand the vile institution of slavery is embedded in mankind's history from virtually the beginnings of mankind. For most of history in every civilization slavery was an accepted practice. I expect people to take it for what it was, not take it personally and act on their emotions and realize the worlds standards are now different than they were during that time, except these historical monuments as part of our history, one that should not be forgotten but celebrated as the point in which the institution of slavery came to an end.
IMO the worse insult and offense it the way in which the freed slaves and their decedents were treated by BOTH the north and south. The injustices, discrimination, and oppression didn't end with the emancipation. Slavery was coming to an end world wide, it would have soon been eradicated in America without the civil war but all the evils of racism remained. That has squat to do with the confederate military leaders or fallen soldiers.
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