Dutch Lawmaker Posts His Anti-Koran Film on Internet (CNN, extremist, racism)

[bentlebee]

I might have to explain that not many Jews are living in Holland. In the town I was born the population is 200.000 and there were only 3 Jewish families left. When I was young I had to go on my bike (which is a normal way of traveling in Holland) for 25 min. to get to my elementary school, just because the closest elementary school was a katholic school which at that time didn't allow jewish people to attend. (that was never an issue for us, but still it is a fact).
http://www.cidi.nl/dossiers/an/rapporten/report2006.pdf (broken link)

So if you read this link about anti semitic issues, realize that there aren't many Jews and many incidents are never reported just because of fear. In Amsterdam and surrouding areas there are more Jewish families, but if you father has a good job you are not going to move just to be among more Jewish families and to get away of anti semitic remarks. We just lived with it and never told anybody about being Jewish except if they asked, but even than I wasn't comfortable with it. Being in the US make s it like I'm having freedom and dare to wear my jewelry, not to provoke just because I once got it from a family member and I don't have to be scared wearing it and I realize how good that is. Thanks America.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by camping!

Theo van Gogh could have been killed by other religious or political extremists? What other group has been to known to kill people who insult their beliefs? Baptists? Perhaps the Mormons? Ah, of course Catholics, but that was five hundred years ago.

LoL you have no idea what you are talking about.
The hate crime before Theo van Gogh is van Gogh's good friend Pim Fortuijn, and also like van Gogh a liberal, was killed by a (white) animal activist.
There was no race or religious motive at all, so not all extremism is race and / or religiously motivated.

Originally Posted by bentlebee

That is her. She got a job in the USA but went back to Holland because the Dutch government wouldn't pay for her security over here.

The Dutch government only pays for the security of government officials. If Aayan wants to stay in America she should become American.
But I guess that the Americans don't want to pay her security bill either.

So if you read this link about anti semitic issues, realize that there aren't many Jews and many incidents are never reported just because of fear.

Right and being Dutch Jewish makes you an expert in Dutch journalism? If being a minority is your sole reason to be afraid I guess that America is a good country to flee to.
Unless you are dark skinned and have an Arabic or Hispanic name and speak Arabic, Spanish or Portuguese.

[camping!]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by camping! LoL you have no idea what you are talking about.
The hate crime before Theo van Gogh is van Gogh's good friend Pim Fortuijn, and also like van Gogh a liberal, was killed by a (white) animal activist.
There was no race or religious motive at all, so not all extremism is race and / or religiously motivated.

Originally Posted by bentlebeeThe Dutch government only pays for the security of government officials. If Aayan wants to stay in America she should become American.
But I guess that the Americans don't want to pay her security bill either.

Right and being Dutch Jewish makes you an expert in Dutch journalism? If being a minority is your sole reason to be afraid I guess that America is a good country to flee to.
Unless you are dark skinned and have an Arabic or Hispanic name and speak Arabic, Spanish or Portuguese.

I have no idea what I am talking about? Funny, this is a thread about the film your politian Wilders put out about the dangers of Islam, not about the dangers of PETA. Perhaps you are confused. Or maybe you have an indefensible position and you know it.

You seem to know all about America, a country that you do not live in nor are a citizen of, yet you criticize bentlebee for his/her opinion of his/her own experiences in his/her own country?

Shouting over the opposition with lies, obfuscations, and redirection is a classic strategem for radical Islam, and really any movement that cannot hold up to the light of day and the prescense of logic.

[TnHilltopper]

Just a reminder, the topic is...

Dutch Lawmaker Posts His Anti-Koran Film on Internet

I also want to note that this subject is rather controversial and inflammatory, and this is great but it is also the kind of subject that goes astray and usually ends up in personal insults, flame wars, and off topic subject matter. I will ask only one time that people keep this discussion on topic.

[bentlebee]

Thanks TnHilltopper. I sure will and hope others also. Thanks Camping!

I will explain what some one is trying to say and clear something up. Pim Fortuyn was running for president of The Netherlands and was killed by an mental sick person who acted on behalf of an animal kind of activist. Pim Fortuyn was very stronge with his views on Islam and wanted muslims in The Netherlands to intergrate and speak the language and work and other wise send back. His was very clear and certain groups didn't liked what he said and that is similar to Wilders. Pim Fortuyn had a great change of winning the elections and it was a huge shock to have a person killed (for the Dutch people, almost the same impact as the JFK murder). The shock was bigger when it came out that this person was an activist and not as expected a muslim because the muslims had declared a Fatwa against Fortuyn. After that van Gogh was killed in the middle of the day when riding his bike in Amsterdam. A note stating his had wished this upon him self because of his openly making statement about muslims. Ali B. who was portrated in Wilders short film, is the killer who stated again he would do the same in the name of Allah and more people have been threated by other muslim groups. So in The Netherlands on tv the journalists are scared to say anything or they will get the same thing happen to them as has happened to Salman Rushdie in England, Hirsh Ali, etc. Politicians are scared to, for a good reason. So with all that happening to Wilders is a hero to jepardize his life and live like he has to live just to say what many others are thinking. Religion should be about religion and not about hate preaching, calling out for people who are having a different opinion, to be killed.
IMO there is no other reliogion asking for other religions to convert to their religion or they will be killed. Wilders used facts as htey are out there and these horrible things have happened. I understand the government to say they don't agree. Most are scared for their families, they have no other choice. And look for your self some cities in Euope are almost Arabian speaking cities, not the countries language.
If you visit a doctors office or government office in Holland. It used to be that flyers would be in Dutch, English, German and French. Now it starts with Dutch than Arabic....
Nobody can deny that, because it is a fact. That is how far we have come. How many churches are in a muslim country? In the Netherlands there are over 400 mosques.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by bentlebee

I will explain what some one is trying to say and clear something up. Pim Fortuyn was running for president of The Netherlands and was killed by an mental sick person who acted on behalf of an animal kind of activist.

Thank you for the straight forward, factual, unemotional explanation. I learned more from your one post than all of the rest in this thread.

Again, thanks

[pascobrother62]

Pim Fortuyn was killed by Volkert van der Graaf, who claimed to be a supporter of animal rights, but confessed in court that he killed Fortuyn to stop him from targeting "the weak parts of society to score points" in seeking political power (Wikipedia). It is well-known in the Netherlands that muslims with social integration problems (which would be most of them) are the biggest framework within these weak parts.

One would be hard pressed to find Jewish or Christian politically or religiously motivated killings, compared to the ones that are being committed by the Arab-Muslim extremists of this world.

The Netherlands (as well as many other European countries) have done a very poor job in controling and integrating the inflow of Muslims for the last forty(!) years or so. They are now paying the price. I feel that there is no way of turning this "problem" around. It is a very unfortunate situation, but I think that things can only turn worse.

[pascobrother62]

[quote=Tricky D;3316952]Originally Posted by camping! LoL you have no idea what you are talking about.
The hate crime before Theo van Gogh is van Gogh's good friend Pim Fortuijn, and also like van Gogh a liberal, was killed by a (white) animal activist.
There was no race or religious motive at all, so not all extremism is race and / or religiously motivated.


I would like to remind Tricky D of the fact that here in the U.S. "liberal" has a very different meaning compared to the general use in the Netherlands (or Europe for that matter).

In the U.S. liberal means that one belongs to the political left (Democratic view), in the Netherlands liberal means that one would belong to the political right (Republican view).

Pim Fortuyn had a very clear conservative, rightwing view on politics and society. Although Theo van Gogh and Pim were friends I also have to correct you on Theo's political views; van Gogh wasn't a conservative by far. Most of his views on politics and society stood for a more leftist expression. So, in the U.S. he would be considered more of a moderate liberal.

[bentlebee]

To Pascobrother62.

I knew about the Pim Fortuyn murderer and his reasons but didn't want to say it because this TrickyD is changing everything around. Thanks for telling the truth and I totally agree that The Netherlands is paying the price. My parents who had to hide during WWll and lost half our family, are now as scared as back than and know it will be worse than back than, since these extremists kill in the middle of the day and want to take over Europe. They are not hiding that fact. The other thing that most people on this forum probable don't know and realize is that an average family gets 2 or 3 children. Muslims in Europe get an avarage of 6 or more kids, so just an easy calculation of how fast this population is growing. I really hope the USA realizes that they have to act now and learn from the mistakes that Europe made. As the founding fathers have stated the didn't want to make the same errors, so don't allow Obama's judgment skills to take over when his friends are preaching hate. That is the beginning of what was not looked at in Europe and we all know what has happened.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by bentlebee

Ali B. who was portrated in Wilders short film, is the killer who stated again he would do the same in the name of Allah and more people have been threated by other muslim groups.

So Ali B is not mentally sick because he believed he had to act under a Fatwa which only extreme Islamists act under, but Volkert is mentally sick because he is left or a socialist and they can't be extreme?
Wasn't it Marx who said that socialists will hang the last capitalist after he sold them the rope?

The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.
Karl Marx
German economist & Communist political philosopher (1818 - 1883)

Volkert killed Fortuijn for political reasons which had nothing to do with race or culture.

I knew about the Pim Fortuyn murderer and his reasons but didn't want to say it because this TrickyD is changing everything around.

Right.
So the Islam suddenly is (extreme) Left? So being Left is cultural or a racial reason?
Volkert killed Fortuijn because Fortuijn is a liberal which means that he was Right, while Volkert is (extreme) Left. Many Jews were and are Left, why else were there so many Jews on McCarthy's black Hollywood list?
Or was it simply because Marx, the father of socialism thus Left, was a Jew?
So implying that all Jews are communists was easy to do for McCarthy.

Karl Marx was born to a Jewish Lutheran family. About a year before Marx was born, his father had converted to the Prussian state religion of Lutheranism in order to continue working as a lawyer. Luthernism was the major Protestant denomination of Christianity where Marx lived. Marx and his family were nominally Christian. Karl Marx was raised in an essentially non-religious home and he adopted atheism.
Source: Religion of Karl Marx: Jewish Lutheran turned atheist Marxist

The other thing that most people on this forum probable don't know and realize is that an average family gets 2 or 3 children. Muslims in Europe get an avarage of 6 or more kids, so just an easy calculation of how fast this population is growing.

Wilders' argument that he was not against Muslims, but against the Islam ideology is shut down by everyone in the Dutch government (except by the people on Wilders' party).
Wilders wants to minimise the numbers of Muslim people in Holland, which you can't, because anyone can convert to the Islam.
If you want to stop the Islamisation you only have to ban the Qu'ran, but Wilders wants to do more than just ban books.
Wilders argument that he is only against the Islam (ideology) and not the Muslim (the people who follow the ideology) is complete hogwash.

Wilders' accusation that it is the PM who caused a panic by calling the release of Fitna a crisis situation is also shot down, because Wilders had warned the PM and the minister of homeland security in the end of 2007 that he was making a movie in which he would rip or burn the Qu'ran.
Now Wilders calls everyone in the government a liar because they don't believe him, especially when confidential written transcripts of his talk with the PM and the boss of our homeland security prove that the PM had reason to prepare for a crisis after Wilders had given his outline for his movie.
Wilders is considered a political pyromaniac who starts fires, then runs away and accuses someone else of setting things ablaze.
He is more and more becoming isolated, simply because he believes that only Wilders is capable of speaking the truth so the rest (of the government) can only be liars.