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I'm a minority, and educated professional, and I STILL get pulled over all the time, far, far more than my white neighbors/coworkers. And yes, I have been pulled out at gunpoint by the police, several times, in my life. And yes, I have even been assaulted by the police when I was a kid... for simply walking down the street. My dad has also been assaulted by the police (beat, really), for walking down the street. I've been frisked, handcuffed, harassed, everything but shot, multiple times in my life, yet have never been arrested. I've even worked closely with the police for years at a time, at one job even carrying a police radio and having to learn/speak in 10-code, and still all these incidents happened (including one time where two cops snuck up on me and stopped me at gunpoint, and I had headphones and couldn't hear a word they were saying... pretty luck to not have been shot that day). It's not made up, whether you want to believe it or not.
I don't know why people don't believe these horrible incidents happen. In recent years many have been caught on video, and they still deny it. They are disgusting.
If this has been your experience (and I'm skeptical — just being honest) then I can see how your perception would be what it is. If these things occurred as you've described them, it's clearly appalling and I'm sorry you and your father have had to deal with that. That should be addressed, if not prosecuted.
That being said, the plural of anecdote is not necessarily data, and the comparative minority of these things occurring does not make it the rule rather than the exception. Police officers interact with civilians somewhere between 50 and 200 million times each year in the United States. If there was evidence to support the assertion that the police are largely bad, murderous individuals, we'd have clear data to support the assertion. Those data are simply not forthcoming. That's not to suggest that there aren't bad officers, because there sure are. I have work-related contracts with 9 law enforcement agencies here in Florida. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are members on the force who have no business holding a badge and a gun. This is still the exception, rather than the rule, which is all I was suggesting.
I have no issues with holding the bad individuals accountable in any circumstance, but that's not the same as the fear-porn disseminated via left-wing media outlets declaring blacks need to worry foremost about being murdered in cold blood by cops in the course of their daily lives. It's an intellectually criminal level of gaslighting. Most violence and homicide (more than 90%), racially speaking, is committed by in-group civilians against one another. When it comes to the police, blacks are more likely to experience non-lethal use of force, though it's not necessarily clear why. Roland Fryer and others have done some quality analysis in this field and you may be surprised by some of their findings. There is work to be done on this front, but the left really needs to stop lying through their teeth about reality.
A few remarks..
1. I think the sheer amount of times it actually occurs (not necessarily being shot, but everything else) flies under most people's radars. It doesn't get reported unless (maybe) someone gets shot. This isn't just my experience, it's the same experiences that my friends have also had. Many of them were with me when some of these things happened... yet none of us have been arrested or have criminal records. I don't think these types of interactions are as infrequent as you are suggesting. I think they just don't make the news.
2. Minorities, and black men especially, absolutely have more to fear from the police that non-blacks. I wish that weren't true, but it is. It just is.
3. I don't want anyone to think that I am necessarily against cops. Like you, I think overall they are okay, and have a tough job. But there are more than a few bad apples, and certainly some bad training, or just bad habits. And personally, I'm surrounded by cops in my life. I have cousins who are cops, friends from elementary school who became cops, girlfriends who were cops, and I've responded to plenty of reference checks for my friends who were trying to become cops. My friends son just graduated from the academy and became a cop, and I'm thrilled for him! In my professional life, I often work closely with the police, and at one point even had to carry a police radio and speak in 10-code (I tend to work in largely poor, urban settings). And those two cops that got ambushed in CA, that's the community I grew up in, and the first thing I did was to look their names up and see if it was one of my friends (which is a pretty scary few seconds to have). Unlike just about everything and every topic on this board, I don't believe it's an "all or nothing" scenario. Cops aren't all good, or all bad...no profession is. But they definitely have some work to do, and the stories that we hear in the press aren't made up, and aren't hysteria, but an unfortunate way of life for many of us.
Quote:
If this has been your experience (and I'm skeptical — just being honest) then I can see how your perception would be what it is.
4. Good for you, seriously. Because if you really are that skeptical, then that means you haven't had to experience the things that we have. I get this same response all the time when I tell these stories to my colleagues, going back at least 30 years. And every time someone reacts in that manner it lets me know that I need to keep telling these stories, because clearly people don't realize what's really going on. And professionally, a lot of the clients I work with have had these same experiences, and react to them whichever way they do, and it helps when I am the one working with them, because I understand, I've been there. And if I didn't have that experience, and I showed even a hint of skepticism, I'd lose them, most likely forever. I will continue to tell these stories, because there are people like you (And I don't mean that in a derogatory way at all) who are still skeptical that it happens. And I've learned over the years that the only way to get people to realize that it still happens, is to keep telling the stories.
Anyway, good dialogue here. You originally asked if there was ever a black person who didn’t actively resist the arrest and still got shot, and the posters have given you a few real examples. I imagine there will be a few more too.
when i was around 16, a neighbor was a police chief of a black community, this dude was retire air force as a cook or something, when to night school and after many years on the gi bill ended up with a phd in criminal science, this black community was paying there cops minimum wage so they hire anybody. This chief was the typical stupid fricken red neck dumb azz.
I remember he saying , when he caught someone sitting in their car. for any reason, he stick his nickle plated shotgun in the window to scare them. this was back in the early seventy when you had alot of stupid boss hog type elderly that hated everything, grumpy ol man symplex. even as a kid, You cant do that. while others thought it was funny.
1. I think the sheer amount of times it actually occurs (not necessarily being shot, but everything else) flies under most people's radars. It doesn't get reported unless (maybe) someone gets shot. This isn't just my experience, it's the same experiences that my friends have also had. Many of them were with me when some of these things happened... yet none of us have been arrested or have criminal records. I don't think these types of interactions are as infrequent as you are suggesting. I think they just don't make the news.
I grew up in a huge melting pot of a family. We regularly have hundreds of people at our family reunions; 5 generations and at least 10 last names worth of relations. My black and mixed-race relatives would dispute the frequency of police interaction (and extent thereof) you've described. I'm merely suggesting that your experience, offensive as it may be, is clearly not ubiquitous.
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Originally Posted by stone26
2. Minorities, and black men especially, absolutely have more to fear from the police that non-blacks. I wish that weren't true, but it is. It just is.
I'm charitable enough to agree that, based on actual data, your elevated fear being justifiable is contingent upon the locale in which you're being pulled over. It's not ubiquitous. It just isn't. That doesn't render it less of a concern when it happens, of course. When and where unjustified disparities occur, there is clearly a problem in need of being addressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stone26
3. I don't want anyone to think that I am necessarily against cops. Like you, I think overall they are okay, and have a tough job. But there are more than a few bad apples, and certainly some bad training, or just bad habits. And personally, I'm surrounded by cops in my life. I have cousins who are cops, friends from elementary school who became cops, girlfriends who were cops, and I've responded to plenty of reference checks for my friends who were trying to become cops. My friends son just graduated from the academy and became a cop, and I'm thrilled for him! In my professional life, I often work closely with the police, and at one point even had to carry a police radio and speak in 10-code (I tend to work in largely poor, urban settings). And those two cops that got ambushed in CA, that's the community I grew up in, and the first thing I did was to look their names up and see if it was one of my friends (which is a pretty scary few seconds to have). Unlike just about everything and every topic on this board, I don't believe it's an "all or nothing" scenario. Cops aren't all good, or all bad...no profession is. But they definitely have some work to do, and the stories that we hear in the press aren't made up, and aren't hysteria, but an unfortunate way of life for many of us.
I largely agree with this. The only qualm I have is that, what's reported in the media (or not) is often narrative-driven in the politically and financially expedient sense (in either the left or right direction). This fact will cause inherent division even where none is necessary, and when the general public deserves the truth and nothing else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stone26
4. Good for you, seriously. Because if you really are that skeptical, then that means you haven't had to experience the things that we have. I get this same response all the time when I tell these stories to my colleagues, going back at least 30 years. And every time someone reacts in that manner it lets me know that I need to keep telling these stories, because clearly people don't realize what's really going on. And professionally, a lot of the clients I work with have had these same experiences, and react to them whichever way they do, and it helps when I am the one working with them, because I understand, I've been there. And if I didn't have that experience, and I showed even a hint of skepticism, I'd lose them, most likely forever. I will continue to tell these stories, because there are people like you (And I don't mean that in a derogatory way at all) who are still skeptical that it happens. And I've learned over the years that the only way to get people to realize that it still happens, is to keep telling the stories.
Anyway, good dialogue here. You originally asked if there was ever a black person who didn’t actively resist the arrest and still got shot, and the posters have given you a few real examples. I imagine there will be a few more too.
I actually have had similar experiences despite my personal familiarity/relationships with LEOs and their respective management as a function of both my business dealings and personal connections. I also know people who've had negative interactions with LEOs that I'm inclined to believe. I don't make the arguments I made in a vacuum, please understand that. I don't see the police as being saints (in fact, I'm probably more skeptical than you might think, and for reasons that would require an actual conversation (I'm happy to have a private chat if you'd like, by the way) ). Heck, I've been erroneously pulled over and harassed multiple times because I legally pass cops driving 10 or more MPH under the posted speed limit. In a couple of cases my work vehicle has been ransacked and I've had a Glock pointed at my head for doing so. All I'm suggesting is that there's a distinction between varying degrees of human error and the notion of a targeted witch-hunt that would see black & brown people euthanized by armed agents of the state with enthusiasm and impunity.
I'm willing to bet that you and I could find common ground on this matter, broadly speaking, and I appreciate the dialogue as well.
-Engaged in a high speed pursuit in the middle of the night
-Exited a car while wearing a balaclava mask with long sleeve shirt in the middle of the night
I'm a minority, and educated professional, and I STILL get pulled over all the time, far, far more than my white neighbors/coworkers. And yes, I have been pulled out at gunpoint by the police, several times, in my life. And yes, I have even been assaulted by the police when I was a kid... for simply walking down the street. My dad has also been assaulted by the police (beat, really), for walking down the street. I've been frisked, handcuffed, harassed, everything but shot, multiple times in my life, yet have never been arrested. I've even worked closely with the police for years at a time, at one job even carrying a police radio and having to learn/speak in 10-code, and still all these incidents happened (including one time where two cops snuck up on me and stopped me at gunpoint, and I had headphones and couldn't hear a word they were saying... pretty luck to not have been shot that day). It's not made up, whether you want to believe it or not.
So to answer the question posed by the OP of this thread, you never got shot.
Yes, you have been treated like a potential criminal but that is to expected when you are black and a male because this group is the leading group in terms of crime. What part of that do you not get?
I'm a minority, and educated professional, and I STILL get pulled over all the time, far, far more than my white neighbors/coworkers. And yes, I have been pulled out at gunpoint by the police, several times, in my life. And yes, I have even been assaulted by the police when I was a kid... for simply walking down the street. My dad has also been assaulted by the police (beat, really), for walking down the street. I've been frisked, handcuffed, harassed, everything but shot, multiple times in my life, yet have never been arrested. I've even worked closely with the police for years at a time, at one job even carrying a police radio and having to learn/speak in 10-code, and still all these incidents happened (including one time where two cops snuck up on me and stopped me at gunpoint, and I had headphones and couldn't hear a word they were saying... pretty luck to not have been shot that day). It's not made up, whether you want to believe it or not.
"for walking down the street."
I'm white have been stopped "driving while white" may times while driving through black neighborhoods.
What color were most of the officers?
“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
― Jesse Jackson"
Should I whine because I have been stopped by BLACK cops, many times? And yell "RACISM"..........!
Last edited by Quick Enough; 07-05-2022 at 04:59 AM..
I don't know why people don't believe these horrible incidents happen. In recent years many have been caught on video, and they still deny it. They are disgusting.
Of course they happen... but they happen to people that aren't black, too. In my opinion, the missing (ignored) piece in this whole discussion is that the overwhelming majority of traffic stops are routine. Even for black people. Why won't you acknowledge this? A simple YouTube search will show plenty of white morons being 'abused' by traffic cops.
You know where we lived that my husband or sons were never pulled over? Kentucky, Tennessee, and Georgia. The other states one of them got pulled over once but guess where one or more of them were on multiple occasions: Texas, Kansas, and California. The worst, by a long shot - freaking California.
My husband bought himself a high end car after getting promoted to major and the year and three months we lived in California afterwards he was pulled over seven times, including once when they made lay on the ground handcuffed while they checked to see if his car had been reported stolen. My husband is an articulate, soft spoken, well dressed, cooperative and polite middle aged person who always has been very careful to drive 2-3 miles under the speed limit. Nothing he did that night justified being pulled over, let alone be laid on the ground like a dangerous criminal and handcuffed - unless you think being black is a reason. They didn’t even sit him up. It is hard to not get bitter. Fortunately we moved back to Kentucky a month later where he never has been pulled over. My husband told his branch manager he would get out of the Army before he would ever returned to California, and he meant it.
No, he didn’t get shot because he did exactly what he was told by the officers, all his responses included “yes, sir” and “no, sir”, and tried not to let his anger show. But, angry he was and justifiably so… and afraid one wrong twitch might lead to him being shot. My husband is an extremely disciplined man who has served in combat and if he had to struggle to keep his anger/fear in check it is not hard to understand why a younger man might lose it.
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