Twisted logic of liberals (Ron Paul, gas prices, Iran, Iraq)

[nononsenseguy]

Originally Posted by boiseguy

I am liberal.. I don't support abortion, but I don't oppose it either.. its a personal issue...

Is murder a "personal issue"?

Originally Posted by boiseguy

I don't support smoking or pot smoking.. but I don't oppose it either.. its a personal issue

So, I guess, is doing other drugs, huh?

Originally Posted by boiseguy

I don't hate america.. I speak out in anger because I love it

Granted, and so do conservatives. We don't like to see what our founders created being destroyed by wrong thinking, and those who prefer socialism to freedom. They can go live somewhere else.

Originally Posted by boiseguy

I hate racial profiling and affirmative action, I'm about promoting the underpriveledged no matter what colour they are...

Great, but don't force it through legislation and the court system.

Originally Posted by boiseguy

Your logic sounds like rush limbaugh talking points.....

How did I know this was coming? Does Rush now issue "talking points"? Do you even listen to Rush? Probably not. You know what you just did with that statement? You just told us that conservatives do not have a right to express their opinions publicly, but you do.

Originally Posted by boiseguy

Small minds can only wrap around the issues so much... before you start a post that is antagonistic... try to seem atleast inteligent and educated...

I challenge you to listen to Rush for at least one week, to find out how intelligent, and educated he is, and how cogent his arguments are.

Rush and other conservative pundits and radio talkers only give voice to conservative views, which are difficult to find in other so-called "mainstream" media. Certainly in a free country, he (and we) have a right to do this. If Rush and other conservatives can't speak, we are no longer free. Without Rush and others, we would be left with NPR, getting only government and liberal propaganda. Kind of like the former USSR and Pravda.

Originally Posted by boiseguy

us vs them mentality does not help america in any way.. it only will continue to divide us... grow up

Well, you may think that; however, in a battle of ideas, which this is, it is "us vs. them".

You don't understand what is being argued about or what is at stake, or you wouldn't make such a statement. We have on one side, people who are essentially socialists wanting to change America into something you would not recognize as "America as our founders created it". On the other side, are people who love freedom, rugged individualism, and limited government, as did our founders, and this battle is to preserve it for our children and our grandchildren.

[KevK]

Originally Posted by ELOrocks17

Pro abortion but anti death penalty

Anti cigarette but support pot smoking

Hates America but refuses to leave

Hates racial profilling but loves affermative action



Michael Savage was right...liberalism is a mental disorder!

Lies lies and more lies from the right. And Michael Savage is just that- a savage. He ought to be removed from the radio and he will be when one of his looney followers goes on a rampage and shoots people and the survivors sue the station he is on and win a multi million dollar judgement. Not even Hannity, Limbaugh and Boortz will cross the lines of decency Savage does.

[KevK]

Originally Posted by karfar

Actually, I'm pro cigarette AND pot smoking. Everyone needs a vice.

I am against ALL smoking but I will make the following points:

1. Marijuana smokers tend to smoke for recreation occassionaly. Cigraette smokers are addicts and most of them smoke at least a pack a day.

2. Marijuana smokers usually do not feel that they have to light up in public and share their pollution with everybody around them. Cigarette smokers have the attitude that they should be able to light up anywhere at anytime and to hell with those around them.

3. Cigarette smokers have far worse health effects and cost society billions of dollars. If I were a business man, I would not hire a cigarette smoker. If the drug test came back positive for nicotine on candidate A and positive for marijuana on candidate B, candidate B would get the job. Even non smokers in certain professions (like trucking) have to pay higher insurance premiums because of the prevalence of smoking and illness in those professions.

4. If you want to send people to prison for marijuana, fine BUT you decide which armed robbers, killers and rapist you want to let out to make room for them. Oh, and try sending ALL the drug addicts including Noel Bush and Rush Limbaugh with them.

[e2ksj3]

Originally Posted by ELOrocks17

Pro abortion but anti death penalty

Anti cigarette but support pot smoking

Hates America but refuses to leave

Hates racial profilling but loves affermative action



Michael Savage was right...liberalism is a mental disorder!

Let me try and address each of your points, since you seem not understand where liberals are coming from.....


Pro abortion but anti death penalty

Pro-choice doesn't mean you are pro-abortion. Not all liberals are against the death penalty. Stop lumping everyone together. How would you feel if I said ALL conservatives worship Bush and his reckless policies?

Anti cigarette but support pot smoking

I think there problem with cigarettes is the direct health effects it has on second hand smokers to others, not really cigarettes itself. Same could be said for pot smoking. I think people should be able to do what they want in their own homes or in a place where other people are also smoking (like a bar or cannibas store).

Hates America but refuses to leave

OMG, why do conservatives always use this. Just because someone disagrees with certain policies (or in this case war) doesn't make them anti-American. If the fore-fathers wouldn't have spoken out against England and it's policies, we wouldn't have an American to "hate" as neocons love to say.

Hates racial profilling but loves affirmative action

The whole reason for AA was because of "liberals" speaking out against discrimination during the Jim Crow era, along with other legislation as well, like Equal Housing Act, etc. Not all liberals agree on it, I personally wouldn't mind take out parts of it or either putting the shift more towards looking at income versus race.

I think some of the job quotas probably should still be kept in place at least for the next few years. There was a recent study where they found that "black" sounding names were getting call backs then "white" sounding names despite having the same resumes. So what would you call that?

Michael Savage was right...liberalism is a mental disorder

Anyone who listens to Michael Savage, the same guy regulary talks about the "gay mafia" and tells gay people to get aids and die, and regular insults people on his show that oppose is view is in my opinion off their rocker.

Since you want to say things about liberals, how a few questions for conservatives like:

Why do you always say someone "hates" America when they disagree with you, when our country was founded on people speaking out against the government's policies if they didn't agree with them. Sounds to me, like you don't like what America was founded on. How about you leave and go live in Saudi Arabia or China, since you don't like the idea of freedom of speech

Why won't you go fight the war on "terror" if you support it so much? If you really support it, go fight your cause.

Why are you against "liberal" ideas like environmentalism, spending money transportation, and for equal rights OF ALL the citizens of this country?

[saganista]

Originally Posted by KevK

2. Marijuana smokers usually do not feel that they have to light up in public and share their pollution with everybody around them. Cigarette smokers have the attitude that they should be able to light up anywhere at anytime and to hell with those around them.

I think you should probably rephrase that to refer to many fewer than the entire population of cigarette smokers. There are certainly inconsiderate cigarette smokers, and there should probably be some notice given to the fact that there are significant numbers of inconsiderate non-smokers as well.

Originally Posted by KevK

3. Cigarette smokers have far worse health effects and cost society billions of dollars.

Bicycle riding costs society billions of dollars. Let me start playing around with the fuzzy things (such as "lost productivity") and I can show that almost anything costs society billions of dollars.

[LLLL98]

Originally Posted by neil0311

I hate any action that judges people solely on race, but I have no problem with checking Muslim men between age 18-25 at airports more closely. Not all Muslims men are terrorists, but all the terrorists that have struck us have been Muslim men. Acting prudently isn't profiling, provided you have a rational basis for your actions. Should we waste time checking more 80 year old white grandmas from Minnesota, instead of concentrating on what has been the threat so far, which is Muslim men from Arab countries? There is no room for political correctness where lives are at stake.

Tim McVeigh? The guy who was responsible for the deadliest terror attack in America prior to 9-11. It's not about political correctness, it's about supporting a false sense of security.

[neil0311]

Boy you do like to paint with a broad brush. Being conservative doesn't mean being religious. I'm an atheist, but I have common sense. Being conservative doesn't mean you're a knuckle dragging redneck racist either. This is a myth propogated by liberals and far lefties like you Saganista and used as an ad hominem attack on anyone who disagrees with you. You find it so difficult to believe that anyone intelligent could possibly disagree with your perfect view of the world. If they do, there must be something wrong with them...stupid, racist, etc.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives can't cope with the implications of evolution, so they invent their own alternative pseudo-science where those implications do not exist.

I have no issues with evolution and agree completely that some form of evolution has taken place, although even among biologists there are changing theories that correct or expand on Darwin.

Again, not all conservatives are religious or believe in the fanatical religious theories.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives can't cope with the implications of climate science, so again they invent their own alternative pseudo-science to wipe those implications away.

I can cope just fine, but I'd like to see fact and not conjecture and pseudo sciense from such scientific marvels as Al "I invented the Internet" Gore. Climate change has been happening for millions of years. The world was a much hotter and tropical place when the dinosaurs lived here, and it was also covered by glaciers during the ice ages. I have no doubt that pollution isn't a good thing, but let's not jump to the conclusion for political purposes that a huge change has taken place in 10 years and it's all GWB's fault. That's where the wheels come of the scientific argument.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives can't cope with the implications of the widespread rejection of religious dogma concerning abortion and homosexuality, so guess what...they manufacture their own pseudo-science that pretends to support the dogma.

Again, not all conservatives are religious. I'm an atheist. Don't give a rat's behind about religion, but I do respect the right of individuals to believe in it if it makes them happy, provided they keep it to themselves. Some liberals want to abolish or minimize religion and push their own atheism, which is just as wrong.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives can't cope with the implications of criticism of US policy either at home or abroad, so they invent the idea of "America haters" and pretend that all the actual flaws lie with them. Some of those designated as "America haters" (see Ward Churchill or Hugo Chavez) are then ruthlessly attacked in an attempt to smother their ideas.

Not so...but there is a difference between legitimate criticism and creating your own history and your own truth to fit your politically motivated argument. Much of the time, criticism isn't based on any coherent understanding of history and facts, but rather on naive feelings and politically motivated strategy.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives can't cope with the implications of the daily news, so they invent their own disinformation media where events are ignored, misrepresented, or just plain fabricated in order to create a more palatable presentation.

I don't even know what to say to this, except how about showing some examples and be specific. Conservatives generally (not always) are reacting to the facts and doing what needs to be done, rather than filtering their actions through some politically correct filter or based upon some idealistic view of the world.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives can't cope with the implications of rapidly expanding income inequalities, so they invent myths about poor decision making and personal responsibility that seek to place all the blame on the victims.

Liberals can't cope with the facts that people who have worked hard, studied, gotten an education, and saved and invested their income can do well and accumulate wealth. They fail to cope with the realities of success and failure, and that we're not all equal when it comes to success and failure, and it's not the government's job to be the equalizer. Some people work hard and have goals, and some don't. Some people are highly intelligent, and some have average means. Some intelligent people are lazy, and some average people have incredible drives to succeed. If you take personal responsibility and work hard, you can succeed. Making the right decisions in your life is up to you, not me or the government. You drop out of school or become hooked on drugs while having 3 kids, that's on you.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives can't cope with the lingering implications of 400 years of racism, so they invent a movement to pretend that continuing efforts toward establishment of full equality are actually discrimination against the priveleged.

Sure, racism existed and it was evil. However, for the last 45 years it's been illegal, and with each generation is further being eliminated and pushed into the exception category. It's time to stop using it as crutch and get on with life. Stuff happens in life and you can either push on or sit around and be bitter, blaming others for your own failures.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives can't cope with the social implications of demographic and migratory realities, so they invent what is little more than a hate-group that pretends it can hold back cultural and economic tides and preserve a culture that doesn't actually exist to begin with.

Don't even know WTF that means, other than a veiled attempt at legitimizing illegal aliens and their violations of our laws. All I can say to that is that we have laws for a reason, and if you break them, you're a criminal...period. I would like Saganista to try sneaking into Mexico or other latin countries and being an illegal in their country. You will see how quickly they will deal with you.

Originally Posted by saganista

-- Conservatives definitely can't cope with the cooperative implications of living within a progressive society, so they invent such ideas as that taxes are bad, that the private sector is efficient, that free markets provide all the answers, and that what they will define as liberty and property rights give them free license to exploitation and the evasion of social responsibilities in toto.

Exploitation...WTF? Are you serious? Did you read a selection of Lenin and Marx before you posted? A recent analysis from the CBO showed that the top 5% of wage earners pay 50% of the income taxes in this country, and that doesn't count corporate taxes and other taxes. Most people at the lower income levels pay no tax or very little tax. The "earned income tax credit" even provides refunds to people who have paid NOTHING.

The only fair system would be a flat tax where everyone pays an equal share of their income, above a certain minimum...no exceptions or deductions.

[ELOrocks17]

Originally Posted by e2ksj3

Let me try and address each of your points, since you seem not understand where liberals are coming from.....


Pro abortion but anti death penalty

Pro-choice doesn't mean you are pro-abortion. Not all liberals are against the death penalty. Stop lumping everyone together. How would you feel if I said ALL conservatives worship Bush and his reckless policies?
Thats pretty much what all the MSM says about conservatives. Where have you been? and as far as the whole "pro choice" thing, i consider it murder when you allow the choice of life and death to be given to any woman who is pregnant whether they are competent to make that choice or not.

Anti cigarette but support pot smoking

I think there problem with cigarettes is the direct health effects it has on second hand smokers to others, not really cigarettes itself. Same could be said for pot smoking. I think people should be able to do what they want in their own homes or in a place where other people are also smoking (like a bar or cannibas store).Thats pure discrimination. Remeber how Blacks were once forced to sit in the back of the bus? how is that any different from telling smokers they are not allowed to smoke?

Hates America but refuses to leave

OMG, why do conservatives always use this. Just because someone disagrees with certain policies (or in this case war) doesn't make them anti-American. If the fore-fathers wouldn't have spoken out against England and it's policies, we wouldn't have an American to "hate" as neocons love to say.
Sure...keep thinking that. Its important to Americas enemies to show an ununited country, gives them that extra spark to keep on fighting

Hates racial profilling but loves affirmative action

The whole reason for AA was because of "liberals" speaking out against discrimination during the Jim Crow era, along with other legislation as well, like Equal Housing Act, etc. Not all liberals agree on it, I personally wouldn't mind take out parts of it or either putting the shift more towards looking at income versus race.

I think some of the job quotas probably should still be kept in place at least for the next few years. There was a recent study where they found that "black" sounding names were getting call backs then "white" sounding names despite having the same resumes. So what would you call that?reverse racism

Michael Savage was right...liberalism is a mental disorder

Anyone who listens to Michael Savage, the same guy regulary talks about the "gay mafia" and tells gay people to get aids and die, and regular insults people on his show that oppose is view is in my opinion off their rocker.I cant imagine why...you yourself said people with opposing views are good for America

Since you want to say things about liberals, how a few questions for conservatives like:

Why do you always say someone "hates" America when they disagree with you, when our country was founded on people speaking out against the government's policies if they didn't agree with them. Sounds to me, like you don't like what America was founded on.Then get your hearing checked. America was founded on Sedition? As I recall, None of our founding fathers whent over to Europe and told them we are racist imperialists who have caused world misery. But I guess since Clinton and Kerry did it, its ok huh? How about you leave and go live in Saudi Arabia or China, since you don't like the idea of freedom of speech

Why won't you go fight the war on "terror" if you support it so much? If you really support it, go fight your cause.

Why are you against "liberal" ideas like environmentalism, spending money transportation, and for equal rights OF ALL the citizens of this country?

Because its wastefull spending

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by LLLL98

Tim McVeigh? The guy who was responsible for the deadliest terror attack in America prior to 9-11. It's not about political correctness, it's about supporting a false sense of security.

When you look at statistics and probability, you look at the total equation. Sure Tim McVeigh was white and an American. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that you completely ignore other people, but you can't take this "blind" view that anyone, including an 85 year old cripple, could be the terrorist, and reject prudent profiling or whatever name you want to call it. To do so is stupid and naive.

It's the same risk theory used by insurance. Do all teenagers drive like maniacs? Of course not. Are all married people over 40 safe drivers. Of course not. However, when you look at the statistics, you have to go with the probability.

[LLLL98]

Originally Posted by neil0311

When you look at statistics and probability, you look at the total equation. Sure Tim McVeigh was white and an American. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that you completely ignore other people, but you can't take this "blind" view that anyone, including an 85 year old cripple, could be the terrorist, and reject prudent profiling or whatever name you want to call it. To do so is stupid and naive.

It's the same risk theory used by insurance. Do all teenagers drive like maniacs? Of course not. Are all married people over 40 safe drivers. Of course not. However, when you look at the statistics, you have to go with the probability.

I don't support stupid or naive public policies when it comes to protecting the US, but I also don't think that we should ignore the fact that there are people who want to hurt America who are indeed American citizens. Fanatics come in many forms, of course. You are correct, screening an 85 year old man with a walker is not the best use of time or money. Once you start focusing all of your attention on a specific group, either the group that you are profiling will simply employ others to do their dirty work or it will provide the opening for other groups to begin planning and carrying out attacks because they know that few if any people are checking them out.

I'm not denying that the profiling system does work in some ways, but I tend to look at it from the perspective of someone who thinks that eyes and ears should always be open, letting your guard down for some groups might make us an easy target.