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Old 05-24-2010, 08:19 AM
 
24,411 posts, read 23,070,474 times
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If Obama would be found to have lied about his birth certificate and birth history and be proven to have been ineligible to have been elected president, what would become of his official presidency? Would he lose his number designation? In effect would he become the asterisk President?

 
Old 05-24-2010, 08:24 AM
 
26,578 posts, read 14,449,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icy Tea View Post
If Obama would be found to have lied about his birth certificate and birth history and be proven to have been ineligible to have been elected president, what would become of his official presidency? Would he lose his number designation? In effect would he become the asterisk President?
nope. once congress confirmed him and he was sworn in he became the president. a lot of birthers believe that if he's proven a fraud all his decisions become null and void. they don't.
 
Old 05-24-2010, 10:22 AM
 
19,226 posts, read 15,324,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrecking ball View Post
nope. once congress confirmed him and he was sworn in he became the president. a lot of birthers believe that if he's proven a fraud all his decisions become null and void. they don't.
Shouldn't what is good for the courts, be good for the president?

Elsewise, there would be multi-branch collusion of fraud defeating the mechanics of the U.S. Constitution.


“No fraud is more odious than an attempt to subvert the administration of justice” Mr. Justice Roberts in
Hazel-Atlas Glass Co. v, Hartford-Empire Co., 322 U.S. 238 (1944).

A judge is an officer of the court, as well as are all attorneys. A state judge is a state judicial officer,
paid by the State to act impartially and lawfully. A federal judge is a federal judicial officer, paid by the
federal government to act impartially and lawfully. State and federal attorneys fall into the same general
category and must meet the same requirements. A judge is not the court. People v. Zajic, 88 Ill.App.3d 477,
410 N.E.2d 626 (1980).

"Fraud upon the court" occurs whenever any officer of the court commits fraud before a tribunal. A judge
is not a court; he is under law an officer of the court, and he must not engage in any action to deceive the
court. Trans Aero Inc. v. LaFuerga Area Boliviana, 24 F.3d 457 (2nd Cir. 1994); Bulloch v. United States,
763 F.2d 1115, 1121 (10th Cir. 1985) (fraud upon the court exists "where the judge has not performed his
judicial duties").

Whenever any officer of the court commits fraud during a proceeding in the court, he/she is
engaged in "fraud upon the court". In Bulloch v. United States, 763 F.2d 1115, 1121 (10th Cir. 1985),
the court stated "Fraud upon the court is fraud which is directed to the judicial machinery itself and
is not fraud between the parties or fraudulent documents, false statements or perjury. ... It is where
the court or a member is corrupted or influenced or influence is attempted or where the judge has
not performed his judicial function --- thus where the impartial functions of the court have been directly
corrupted."


"Fraud upon the court" has been defined by the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals to "embrace that species
of fraud which does, or attempts to, defile the court itself, or is a fraud perpetrated by officers of the
court so that the judicial machinery can not perform in the usual manner its impartial task of adjudging
cases that are presented for adjudication." Kenner v. C.I.R., 387 F.3d 689 (1968); 7 Moore's Federal
Practice, 2d ed., p. 512, ¶ 60.23. The 7th Circuit further stated "a decision produced by fraud upon the
court is not in essence a decision at all, and never becomes final."

What effect does an act of "fraud upon the court" have upon the court proceeding? "Fraud upon
the court" makes void the orders and judgments of that court. The U.S. Supreme Court has consistently
held that a void order is void at all times, does not have to be reversed or vacated by a judge, can not
be made valid by any judge, nor does it gain validity by the passage of time. The order is void ab initio.
Vallely v. Northern Fire & Marine Ins. Co., 254 U.S. 348, 41 S.Ct. 116 (1920).

“Fraud destroys the validity of everything into which it enters,” Nudd v. Burrows (1875), 91 US 426, 23 Led 286,
290; particularly when “a judge himself is a party to the fraud,” Cone v. Harris (Okl. 1924), 230 P. 721, 723.
Windsor v. McVeigh (1876), 93 US 276, 23 Led 914, 918.
 
Old 05-24-2010, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,080,363 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by ergohead View Post
Shouldn't what is good for the courts, be good for the president?
In most cases... I would suggest no. That is why the Constitution made them different branches with different powers and responsibilities.

But in this regard, perhaps you need to brush up on the "De Facto Officer Doctrine." You can start here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/94-431.ZO.html

Quote:
The de facto officer doctrine confers validity upon acts performed by a person acting under the color of official title even though it is later discovered that the legality of that person's appointment or election to office is deficient. Norton v. Shelby County, 118 U.S. 425, 440 (1886). "The de facto doctrine springs from the fear of the chaos that would result from multiple and repetitious suits challenging every action taken by every official whose claim to office could be open to question, and seeks to protect the public by insuring the orderly functioning of the government despite technical defects in title to office." 63A Am. Jur. 2d, Public Officers and Employees § 578, pp. 1080-1081 (1984) (footnote omitted). The doctrine has been relied upon by this Court in several cases involving challenges by criminal defendants to the authority of a judge who participated in some part of the proceedings leading to their conviction and sentence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ergohead
Elsewise, there would be multi-branch collusion of fraud defeating the mechanics of the U.S. Constitution.
Oh? Please explain. Your references regarding "fraud" do not appear to make that case.
 
Old 05-24-2010, 11:17 AM
 
19,226 posts, read 15,324,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
In most cases... I would suggest no. That is why the Constitution made them different branches with different powers and responsibilities.

But in this regard, perhaps you need to brush up on the "De Facto Officer Doctrine." You can start here:

Ryder v. United States, 515 U.S. 177 (1995).


Oh? Please explain. Your references regarding "fraud" do not appear to make that case.
Yes, well, of course, but, there is technical deficiency - and then there is constitutional deficiency.
 
Old 05-24-2010, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,080,363 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by ergohead View Post
Yes, well, of course, but, there is technical deficiency - and then there is constitutional deficiency.
And I'm still waiting for a Birther to demonstrate either.
 
Old 05-24-2010, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
3,047 posts, read 2,826,620 times
Reputation: 699
To the Obots:

Fraus meretur fraudem and Fraus est celare fraudem
 
Old 05-24-2010, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,080,363 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by DraggingCanoe View Post
To the Obots:

Fraus meretur fraudem and Fraus est celare fraudem
Yawn.
 
Old 05-24-2010, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
3,047 posts, read 2,826,620 times
Reputation: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Yawn.
C troop 3/4 Cav 19 June 1969.. some of the KIA's

SGT Carl J. Bieker, Pueblo, CO, medic, HHT 3/4

SGT John H. Priest, Greenville, SC, medic, HHT 3/4

CPT Gary W. Carlson, West Bridgewater, MA (DSC, SS, BSM-V) Cdr C Troop

CPL Stephen D. Van Dyke, Detroit, MI

SP4 Keith W. Larimer, Tulare, CA

You said a flt surgeon should never go to the field. I was TC of a Sheridan 19 June 1969. I burned 4 50 barrels. Depleted my ammunition..main gun, 50, 60, .45, m16, m79 and grenade launcher.

The flt surgeon came to the battleground. The battle began in the morning and ended the next day.

Ltc Lakin was assigned to the 3/4 Cav. We support him.
 
Old 05-24-2010, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,080,363 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by DraggingCanoe View Post
You said a flt surgeon should never go to the field.
And I still feel that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DraggingCanoe
I was TC of a Sheridan 19 June 1969. I burned 4 50 barrels. Depleted my ammunition..main gun, 50, 60, .45, m16, m79 and grenade launcher.
Thank you for your service. You are especially brave to have fought from a Shank. I am impressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DraggingCanoe
The flt surgeon came to the battleground. The battle began in the morning and ended the next day.
We've been all over this. I told you I would completely take your word for it. We're covering it again now... why exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DraggingCanoe
Ltc Lakin was assigned to the 3/4 Cav. We support him.
I'm certain that your support will mean a lot to him when he is in Leavenworth.
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