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It's also important to familiarize oneself with the Project For A New American Century (PNAC) that in 1998 espoused a new foreign policy doctrine of more aggressive application of US military superiority worldwide, but that such a shift in overall doctrine would likely prove difficult to gain acceptance without another "Pearl Harbor Type Event" to foment support, both at home and abroad. The primary authors of PNAC coincidentally made up a significant portion of the Bush administration, and oh how "LUCKY" they were to get their "Pearl Harbor Type Event" on 911, which has led to 2 Wars, several pieces of draconian legislation, a new Department of Homeland Security, and the shift to preemptive wars of aggression, based on lies and fabrications.
oh no, not the many times DEBUNKED. "PNAC and a new pearl harbor" line of BS
you show you ignoranse and YOUR AGENDA , since you continue to mention only the puppet bush......funny you never go to the next step
if YOU did any real RESEARCH, you would know that brzezenki (the puppetmaster of carter, bush1, clinton, bush2, AND obama) mentioned it in his book LONG BEFORE PNAC
Um, your quote didn't single out just "cops and fire fighters". You also listed "average Joes", of which there are at least two posting in this thread - one of which has been your main adversary in this debate.
Also posted was the video of the firefighter who was letting one of you conspiracy nuts have it, right in front of the WTC site. I'm not digging through 40 pages to find something you're supposed to have already seen, though, so go find it yourself if you need to refresh your memory.
For someone who claims to be all about research and facts, your research skills seem to suck rather badly, as the evidence you're demanding from me for is right here in this thread, and you're supposed to have seen/read it already. Maybe your "research" is limited to conspiracy websites, and if it's not posted there, it just doesn't count..
YAWN. Go educate yourself, and come back when you have something to offer.
you show you ignoranse and YOUR AGENDA , since you continue to mention only the puppet bush......funny you never go to the next step
Please enlighten us with the next step, oh brilliant one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero
if YOU did any real RESEARCH, you would know that brzezenki (the puppetmaster of carter, bush1, clinton, bush2, AND obama) mentioned it in his book LONG BEFORE PNAC
And ..... your point would be what???? MY research goes back long before Zbigniew Brzezinski and Heinz Kissinger ... who, BTW gave Obama his first paying job out of college ... if he even attended college, that is.
But since you have such trouble grasping current events, I would imagine your handle on history is equally weak or worse.
But save your insults ... it doesn't faze me a bit ... I value nothing about you or your opinion including your opinion of me. Just contribute something of value, if you have it in you ... no? I didn't think so.
YAWN. Go educate yourself, and come back when you have something to offer.
And we finally have surrender.
You asked for it, Tex. I merely held your feet to the fire regarding ONE thing you said - just one - and you couldn't defend your own words.
When you go off script and offer up your own words, instead of the carefully crafted talking points from the nutzoid conspiracy sites, you can expect to be called on your BS.
A recap:
-------------------------------
YOU used eyewitnesses that thought they heard bombs as part of the body of evidence supporting your theory.
I simply asked why those people - from all walks of life and all complete strangers to you - should be believed, but not others, who are also from all walks of life and all complete strangers to you, but don't claim that noises they heard were "bombs". That's the only difference between the two subsets of eyewitnesses.
YOU ignored my question, ranting about completely unrelated things when you did bother to respond to me.
I didn't let you get away with it, and continue to press you about the hole in your evidence.
YOUfinally responded to my question by attempting to shift the responsibility onto me to find people that were there day day and don't believe your theory. It was clearly a sign of desperation, as virtually everyone that was there that day is crystal clear on what happened, and not surprisingly, they're not supporting your theory. There's also the people posting in this thread, and at least one video that I recall that was posted which also fulfills your request.
I called you on your desperate request, and made it known that what you asked for was in this very thread - a thread you've been involved in since it was 13 hours old, and have clearly read every post in from start to finish.
YOU finally realized that your goose was cooked, and gave the typical surrender post of "Yawn, go educate yourself."
-------------------------------
Here's the thing, Tex. If you're willing to defend such remarkably bad logic as using the opinions one subset of people as "proof", without explaining why those of the opposing subset are invalid, then why should we believe ANY of your "proof"? You've shown us that you really don't care about what actually happened, and that you only care about proving that you're right.
It might have seemed like I was harping on some inane little detail, but how you tried to explain that inconsistency in your own argument gave us a window into how you perceive all of the evidence, and what we saw was that you really don't care about the facts. You really don't, and it shows.
You asked for it, Tex. I merely held your feet to the fire regarding ONE thing you said - just one - and you couldn't defend your own words.
When you go off script and offer up your own words, instead of the carefully crafted talking points from the nutzoid conspiracy sites, you can expect to be called on your BS.
A recap:
-------------------------------
YOU used eyewitnesses that thought they heard bombs as part of the body of evidence supporting your theory.
I simply asked why those people - from all walks of life and all complete strangers to you - should be believed, but not others, who are also from all walks of life and all complete strangers to you, but don't claim that noises they heard were "bombs". That's the only difference between the two subsets of eyewitnesses.
Don't flatter yourself. You couldn't beat my dog in a game of checkers.
I believe the firefighters ... dozens of them that were on the scene, and have no reason to lie or fabricate anything. It's a good bet that many of them have seen fires before ..ya think? And it's reasonable to assume that they can tell the difference between bombs and pressurized cans of cleaning products exploding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger
YOU ignored my question, ranting about completely unrelated things when you did bother to respond to me.
I did respond, I gave you just what your post deserved ... a YAWN. OF all of the lame brained nonsense posted regarding this topic, I find yours least worthy of my time to read, let alone respond to. I'm only doing it now so that you aren't confused in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger
I didn't let you get away with it, and continue to press you about the hole in your evidence.
YOUfinally responded to my question by attempting to shift the responsibility onto me to find people that were there day day and don't believe your theory. It was clearly a sign of desperation, as virtually everyone that was there that day is crystal clear on what happened, and not surprisingly, they're not supporting your theory. There's also the people posting in this thread, and at least one video that I recall that was posted which also fulfills your request.
"What about all of the others that don't ... balh blah blah" This is your idea of a question? This is what you expect anyone to respond to? YOU have not addressed a single point, NOT ONE SINGLE POINT, nor have you articulated a coherent point of your own for me to respond to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger
I called you on your desperate request, and made it known that what you asked for was in this very thread - a thread you've been involved in since it was 13 hours old, and have clearly read every post in from start to finish.
Maybe you really are serious that you believe your "evidence" are these 3 people and their plainly foolish musings on this thread? Is that it? Jesus, Mother Marry and Joseph ... ARE YOU FOR REAL?
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger
YOU finally realized that your goose was cooked, and gave the typical surrender post of "Yawn, go educate yourself."
You are sharp as a bowling ball ... you got me!!!! CONGRATULATIONS
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger
-------------------------------
Here's the thing, Tex. If you're willing to defend such remarkably bad logic as using the opinions one subset of people as "proof", without explaining why those of the opposing subset are invalid, then why should we believe ANY of your "proof"? You've shown us that you really don't care about what actually happened, and that you only care about proving that you're right.
I know you're slow. So, if I get too fast here .. just re-read. Lovely thing about the written word. You can always back up.
I've made it perfectly clear why I trust the sources I do ... you simply have a reading comprehension problem, or you don't agree .. but don't tell me I haven't spelled it out.
I don't trust te "Experts" at FEMA or NIST. because they are on the Gov't payroll, and they've already been caught lying. I do trust the firefighters and the Police officers who have come forward with their stories that don't match rthe "official" version, because they have no reason to lie. I repeat, THEY HAVE NO REASON TO LIE. They aren't getting paid to lie. Now, you may disagree with that logic, but you cannot claim I haven't presented it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger
It might have seemed like I was harping on some inane little detail, but how you tried to explain that inconsistency in your own argument gave us a window into how you perceive all of the evidence, and what we saw was that you really don't care about the facts. You really don't, and it shows.
Once again, just about everything you post is inane, in my humble opinion, of course. YOU want to argue with me personally ... rather than the points specifically ...I'm flattered. But stick to the points.
To summarize ... I believe what I believe because the government has a long, dubious history of lying. In fact, it is the exception when any one of them tells the unvarnished truth. And in this particular case, their version of the "truth" is so blatantly and transparently false, I'm surprised at the level of ignorance that continues 9 years later, evidenced by this thread.
What is clear, and I've already said this once .. Ron White is correct when he says "You can't fix stupid".
Well Well Well! Let's see what the sheeple say now.
the govt doesn't need to pull off stunts like this to get what they want. there are six billion people on this planet. with that 6 billion come a sizeable number of nutjobs who will perform stupid, random acts of varying proportions to promote their causes.
counter intuition is a really tough sell when all hell breaks loose. the solution is to recognize the link between crisis and the growth and scope of govt power. once we recognise that, we need to have the courage to go the other way
I've almost moved on from everything that happened that day except for a few things: Rather than getting out of the area, being frozen to the spot watching (and listening) to the people jumping. It haunts me. The second thing was the "sound" of the first building as it started to collapse. That sound will be with me for the rest of my life. And there was no bomb prior to the collapse. I am telling you. I was there. Do not spread falsehoods. The third was running immediately after that with the thought that the building was going to come down on a tilt (thank God it didn't) and feeling that as I was running, I was going to get hit with something in the head and that would be it. Life over. With absolutely no control over the situation.
Terrible day. I lost family in this attack. And as a native NY'er I strenously object to any conspiracy theory crazy talk. I know who did this attack. I know who destroyed the skylight of my city, and I know who made me run for my life that day. I do not want anything to get in the way of the public's perception of who did this to us. It could potentially take away the focus of the right people concentrating on that - I'll be polite - organization of people who want to destory our way of life.
Out of respect for the people who both did and did not survive that day, and for the strength of our country, please do not, for entertainment purposes, move the focus of where we should all be looking both for retribution and to ensure it NEVER happens again in any part of our country.
Cokatie--Thank you for sharing. The memory of watching people jump is the thing that haunts me most of all. Knowing that they were as alive as I was but would be dead in a couple of seconds. Not long ago I read an eyewitness report of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire in 1911 (it was near Washington Square Park), wherein about 150 young women jumped to their deaths. The similarities were chilling.
Secondly--the sound. It amazes me that you do not hear the sound of the buildings falling on video--it seems so quiet. It was the sound of ten freight trains in ten thunderstorms, although that doesn't accurately describe it, either. For the first year or so after the attacks, I woke up in the night hearing this godawful noise. I would be sitting up, wide awake, and yet I could "hear" the building falling. I am not the only person who experienced this weird aftereffect. (Another aftereffect that is still with me is the sensation that the floor is moving beneath my feet and I'm losing my balance, as it did upon impact. Happens when I'm in a public place like a mall or on a high floor in a building.)
I am so sorry about the family that you lost that day. I lost about 100 coworkers and other people in the buildings, some of whom I knew for 20 years.
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