The root of Elliott Rodger's extreme jealousy/anger (feelings, sociopath, anxiety)
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I think online dating is very poisonous, in particular to men, esp. if they are socially awkward. There is little effort required to date online and there is very little value if it does not work out. The most common way that women reject men online is to not respond to their messages. A woman does not like what she sees in the guy's profile or pictures, she does not respond. A man can send out 300 messages and some may respond, some may not and that's it. So online is free, and within the comfort zone of most men, you can see why it is very seductive as an option.
MaxLMG, I've been appreciating your posts and think that men your age who have trouble dating could learn a lot from you.
This paragraph really stuck out to me. Another reason online dating is poisonous is that people accept and reject each other on the basis of what is essentially a cardboard cutout. My husband and I met randomly in person. This was before online dating, but if we had seen the other's profile online, I doubt if either of us would have been interested enough to follow up. He's younger than I am and when we met he had not gone to college, which I thought I considered essential. Still, by the end of a fairly awkward first conversation we made plans to go out and we've been together for what will be 19 years in January.
Elliot Rodger and some of the men on the PUA/hate and MRA sites have specific, exacting criteria for women and if you suggest that they look out of their comfort zone, they are offended. The suggestion is not based on the idea that "Look, dude. You're a 5 so you need to date 5's." Rather, it's based on the notion that people are more than their hair, age and body type. If you talk to a real person, you might find out that you think they're amazing and wonderful even if they are not in the package you anticipated. More times than I can count, I've started talking to a stranger and watched them become more or less attractive over time based on how much I liked them as we got to know each other. But that can only happen if you put yourself out there and talk to real people.
I have been reading some of ER's forum posts and I get it that he was having problems and got replies from a lot of people.. This guy that responded to ER was Asian.. ( which surprised me) It seems to me that ER was already having problems with being single and this guy chimes in and says ER would never get a white girl because he was half Asian.
This racial stuff is over the top. I think that helped push him over- the- top- but then again he didn't need much to get there. So, I agree with MaxLMG ( not so much about the relationship boards he uses or his relationships because that is his personal stuff, but he uses forums and online dating to his advantage to find the things that will improve himself) but ER didn't have the same mortality when being on forums.. so that put him in a dangerous position. He couldn't get anymore explosive, when arriving on these forums (even in 2013) but I seriously don't think he needed to be on these forums.
Edit: I just found another one which says some people think he was trying to find others to join his massacre.
More times than I can count, I've started talking to a stranger and watched them become more or less attractive over time based on how much I liked them as we got to know each other. But that can only happen if you put yourself out there and talk to real people.
This is so true. Someone who had "meh" looks when I first met them can become one of THE most attractive people I've ever seen, after I get to know them.
Someone with very good looks can become "meh" or downright ugly, after getting to know them.
Another way to think of this is some movie actors (male or female). There are plenty of actors and actresses that I can't "see" why they're so hot. Then I see them in a film (their breakout role, maybe) and then I know what all the fuss is about. They were so good in that role that there is emotion attached to them now, and their looks, and they will never "look" the same to me.
Elliot Rodger and some of the men on the PUA/hate and MRA sites have specific, exacting criteria for women and if you suggest that they look out of their comfort zone, they are offended. The suggestion is not based on the idea that "Look, dude. You're a 5 so you need to date 5's." Rather, it's based on the notion that people are more than their hair, age and body type. If you talk to a real person, you might find out that you think they're amazing and wonderful even if they are not in the package you anticipated. More times than I can count, I've started talking to a stranger and watched them become more or less attractive over time based on how much I liked them as we got to know each other. But that can only happen if you put yourself out there and talk to real people.
I think deep down inside people do know their level of physical attractiveness, their level of intelligence, and their degree of charm. With rare exception, I think people who match in the above criteria tend to attract one another. That's not to say that there aren't exceptions, but even if you study those exceptions, you see areas in which it all compensates and equals out - for example, a ravishing woman might be attracted by a guy who has superior intelligence. He might not have the looks, but he has the intelligence, she might not have the brilliance, but she has the looks. At the end of the day it kinda equals out, and all of these exchanges take place at a subconscious level. Some might call this having to "settle" but it isn't. Like water, which seeks its level in any vessel, things equal out. That's why the rich generally marry the rich, etc.
The problem with the men at the PUA and MRA hate sites is that they probably bring nothing to the table of relationships (they have bad personalities, they live in a state of rage, they are unpleasant, they don't think of others, they don't feel they should have to make an effort in life, etc.), yet they want the extreme opposite of them - someone who is superlative in every regard. I call that the ultimate state of entitlement. If a man behaves weird and angry, he cannot possibly expect to be attractive to women. And yet these men expect that! When their entitlement wishes don't pan out, they get angrier than they already were to begin with. These men don't need PUA and MRA sites. They need shrinks, life coaches, and to find a sense of humility, which is the #1 thing they lack.
I must confess, a similar thing happened to me. I finally gave in and listened to the voice in my head and started talking to a girl. She told me to buzz off...and I laughed in her face, called her a fat expletive (she wasn't fat, but girls hate that) She said I was just mad because I wouldn't sleep with her, and I said I would catch the herpes she got from when her step father raped her. That I think got to her.
What the heck . . .
YOU approach a girl, she doesn't approach you, YOU are the one getting in her face, wanting something . . . and she is less than kind in telling you to get lost. And so you respond like that? Did she say anything similarly nasty to you first? Did you say it in a jesting manner, so she knew you were full of it and not just angry and lashing out petulantly? If not, I don't understand the justification for it, other than you are a pouty man-child who lashes out when someone you approach isn't interested. They have no obligation to you, you interrupted them in their daily life, and you get all nasty when they aren't so perfectly polite? Not that I'm saying politeness isn't the best way, it absolutely is. But it sounds, from the way you describe it, that your reaction was way over the top and I don't see the benefit of it, other than to "get back" at someone who bruised your delicate ego.
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I agree 100% As awful as it is to say, the best advice I ever heard from dating was this: until she says she cares about you, treat all women as "human kleenexes" "Human", in that it doesn't pay to hurt them or do anything bad to them, but "kleenex" as in they are ultimately disposable and another one is guaranteed to show up right after that one is cast aside. Only when one actually has a relationship should the woman be thought of as a human, with no other qualifier.
And if you have that opposite of desperate attitude, women will respond positively. I walked around with a mindset of a regular, caring guy and got nowhere for years...I decided to channel my Gray Passenger, and women responded positively.
It depends on what kind of women you intend to attract, and what your goals are (and what their goals are).
I would say that if a "nice girl" (genuinely nice, not just "nice") knew that you would lash out in such a nasty way when rejected (to someone you interrupted!) then red flags would go off.
But I don't know your whole story. It may not be at all the way I'm thinking it is.
I do know that there are guys out there who employ "game" and snag all sorts of women, but later on they lament that they can't attract a "good girl" or a "nice girl" but mainly get girls that are silly, vain, not long-term, and so forth. (There are always exceptions to this, and there are also times when a situation sounds worse on paper than it does on person.) But in general, a lot of guys can get laid, but then later on complain and whine because they aren't getting the really nice girls. The answer to that is, the guys don't have the qualities that the really nice girls are attracted to . . .
I think deep down inside people do know their level of physical attractiveness, their level of intelligence, and their degree of charm. With rare exception, I think people who match in the above criteria tend to attract one another. That's not to say that there aren't exceptions, but even if you study those exceptions, you see areas in which it all compensates and equals out - for example, a ravishing woman might be attracted by a guy who has superior intelligence. He might not have the looks, but he has the intelligence, she might not have the brilliance, but she has the looks. At the end of the day it kinda equals out, and all of these exchanges take place at a subconscious level. Some might call this having to "settle" but it isn't. Like water, which seeks its level in any vessel, things equal out. That's why the rich generally marry the rich, etc.
The problem with the men at the PUA and MRA hate sites is that they probably bring nothing to the table of relationships (they have bad personalities, they live in a state of rage, they are unpleasant, they don't think of others, they don't feel they should have to make an effort in life, etc.), yet they want the extreme opposite of them - someone who is superlative in every regard. I call that the ultimate state of entitlement. If a man behaves weird and angry, he cannot possibly expect to be attractive to women. And yet these men expect that! When their entitlement wishes don't pan out, they get angrier than they already were to begin with. These men don't need PUA and MRA sites. They need shrinks, life coaches, and to find a sense of humility, which is the #1 thing they lack.
I agree with this, but I think it is the result of their failure to consider women as individuals, rather than individual character flaws. They are capable of bringing the same things to a relationship that anyone else is capable of bringing, but they are so focused on what the woman brings, or is capable of bringing, that they forget that relationships are reciprocal. Also, because they spend all their time on the computer talking to people just like themselves, their notions are constantly reinforced.
Rather than shrinks or life coaches, most of them could probably improve their success with women if they just practiced in the real world. Like Max said, if you approach 300 women, at least a few of them are going to respond favorably. But to do that, they'd actually have to give up their fantasy that Heidi Klum would date them if she only knew they existed and approach the real women they see in their day-to-day lives.
MaxLMG, I've been appreciating your posts and think that men your age who have trouble dating could learn a lot from you.
This paragraph really stuck out to me. Another reason online dating is poisonous is that people accept and reject each other on the basis of what is essentially a cardboard cutout. My husband and I met randomly in person. This was before online dating, but if we had seen the other's profile online, I doubt if either of us would have been interested enough to follow up. He's younger than I am and when we met he had not gone to college, which I thought I considered essential. Still, by the end of a fairly awkward first conversation we made plans to go out and we've been together for what will be 19 years in January.
Elliot Rodger and some of the men on the PUA/hate and MRA sites have specific, exacting criteria for women and if you suggest that they look out of their comfort zone, they are offended. The suggestion is not based on the idea that "Look, dude. You're a 5 so you need to date 5's." Rather, it's based on the notion that people are more than their hair, age and body type. If you talk to a real person, you might find out that you think they're amazing and wonderful even if they are not in the package you anticipated. More times than I can count, I've started talking to a stranger and watched them become more or less attractive over time based on how much I liked them as we got to know each other. But that can only happen if you put yourself out there and talk to real people.
Thanks and actually you make a lot of good points too. The 'search' criteria allows people to filter out specifics before getting to know the person. A lot of women I've found usually have a 'minimum height' of 6ft. Well, I'm not 6ft and there are a lot of guys who are not. So that immediately eliminates several potential candidates. Also another factor is income. Those are the 2 factors I have found that women are pretty inflexible on in online dating. I created a dummy account, and test tried it. When I changed the height from 5'10" to 6'2" and the income from $50,000 to $150,000+ the account got 3x the number of visits. It's just also so easy to reject online someone as well.
I think dating is still best done traditionally face to face. For myself personally, I actually like taller women. In fact, I'd date women taller than me if I could regularly. I still approach women who are 6'+ although most usually are not receptive, although some have been.
With that said though, I have met shorter women that I also liked as well, once I get to know them. The online really distorts the dating pool, and why I personally think it is poisonous. I don't think you will find any women who would full-heartedly admit that she'd rather meet a guy online vs. the grocery store randomly. For women anyway, online dating is still slightly 'taboo'. For men, I've noticed it's a non-issue.
I have been reading some of ER's forum posts and I get it that he was having problems and got replies from a lot of people.. This guy that responded to ER was Asian.. ( which surprised me) It seems to me that ER was already having problems with being single and this guy chimes in and says ER would never get a white girl because he was half Asian.
This racial stuff is over the top. I think that helped push him over- the- top- but then again he didn't need much to get there. So, I agree with MaxLMG ( not so much about the relationship boards he uses or his relationships because that is his personal stuff, but he uses forums and online dating to his advantage to find the things that will improve himself) but ER didn't have the same mortality when being on forums.. so that put him in a dangerous position. He couldn't get anymore explosive, when arriving on these forums (even in 2013) but I seriously don't think he needed to be on these forums.
Edit: I just found another one which says some people think he was trying to find others to join his massacre.
It's hard to tell really. If that is the case, that would be more rejection on not finding people to carry out what he wanted.
I am not part of any PUA forum, but i have read a lot of them and this is (in general) what I have found:
1. Anger towards women stemming from rejections
2. Low self-esteem/poor self-confidence
3. Sense of entitlement for women.
There is a distorted message that is made within that 'cult mindset' that as an "Alpha Male" you are superior to women as a whole, so you are entitled to whatever you want. It's basically pushing the typically 'jerk' mindset.
The irony is that I never read anything there that says "You know, I really don't make good eye contact and that's something I need to improve, or something to that extent" It's always the woman's fault.....because the guy is absolutely 100% perfect right ?
It's 100x easier to get angry at women, and adopt an entitlement mindset versus self-improvement and doing this on an honest basis.
The bad thing is that there is really nothing mainstream for men in regards to dating which is why a lot of them fall into this garbage. For women there's cosmo, and endless conduits for dating advice.
For men there is really not much, it's sort of the wild west, and men who are not 'naturally' social usually have very limited means for improving themselves. At this point, that's where the adaptation comes into play.....either you wind up like elliot and the other PUA guys who fall into that dark side, your you cut your teeth like I did and go through trial and error.
I think deep down inside people do know their level of physical attractiveness, their level of intelligence, and their degree of charm. With rare exception, I think people who match in the above criteria tend to attract one another. That's not to say that there aren't exceptions, but even if you study those exceptions, you see areas in which it all compensates and equals out - for example, a ravishing woman might be attracted by a guy who has superior intelligence. He might not have the looks, but he has the intelligence, she might not have the brilliance, but she has the looks. At the end of the day it kinda equals out, and all of these exchanges take place at a subconscious level. Some might call this having to "settle" but it isn't. Like water, which seeks its level in any vessel, things equal out. That's why the rich generally marry the rich, etc.
The problem with the men at the PUA and MRA hate sites is that they probably bring nothing to the table of relationships (they have bad personalities, they live in a state of rage, they are unpleasant, they don't think of others, they don't feel they should have to make an effort in life, etc.), yet they want the extreme opposite of them - someone who is superlative in every regard. I call that the ultimate state of entitlement. If a man behaves weird and angry, he cannot possibly expect to be attractive to women. And yet these men expect that! When their entitlement wishes don't pan out, they get angrier than they already were to begin with. These men don't need PUA and MRA sites. They need shrinks, life coaches, and to find a sense of humility, which is the #1 thing they lack.
That's a very good point, and I do agree 100% that a lot of the men on PUA and MRA sites need to work psychologically first before dating. First off it's not fair to the women they encounter (but I'm sure they don't care about this). Secondly, it is not good for their own personal lives as well.
The ironic aspect, is that a lot of the guys on these PUA sites actually are what i call 'keyboard jockeys'. Some may have some success with women, but a lot of them are either trolls, or keyboard warriors repeating whatever they read on the internet with no success. I've found that the ones who are ultimately successful with women wind up leaving the PUA forums all together.
I agree with this, but I think it is the result of their failure to consider women as individuals, rather than individual character flaws. They are capable of bringing the same things to a relationship that anyone else is capable of bringing, but they are so focused on what the woman brings, or is capable of bringing, that they forget that relationships are reciprocal. Also, because they spend all their time on the computer talking to people just like themselves, their notions are constantly reinforced.
Rather than shrinks or life coaches, most of them could probably improve their success with women if they just practiced in the real world. Like Max said, if you approach 300 women, at least a few of them are going to respond favorably. But to do that, they'd actually have to give up their fantasy that Heidi Klum would date them if she only knew they existed and approach the real women they see in their day-to-day lives.
But here's the thing, Marlow. These men in PUA and all those hate groups don't just hate women, they hate men and envy them for being able to date women - keep in mind that that Elliot monster didn't just shoot at and kill women. He shot at and killed men too because he detested men for whatever the men had that he couldn't get without making an effort. He felt he should not have to make any effort or be like ordinary people. He should have everything, and without lifting a finger. His mom should be rich, so he could be rich, he should get girls who were beyond his capacity to have, etc. These people have a sense of entitlement from here to Zanzibar, and are unwilling to make any sort of effort because they just don't feel like it.
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