I hunt animals for meat and sport. Dealbreaker? (older, clothes, best)

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by xxbabeechick

Of course meat eaters who detest hunting are hypocrites, but it's not their fault per se, it's part and parcel of being in a society where meat eating is a norm. If most enlightened people had to slug, shoot, or bludgeon Bambi to death there'd be a lot more vegetarians, since no one needs to eat meat to live. I've been a vegetarian for 5.5 years and I haven't dropped dead yet.

Please don't give me all the malarky about the "noble hunter". I've read books on hunting and read quotes by hunters. Hunting is called "sport" for a reason, it entertains people to kill living animals with their bare hands. Sorry I don't have much in common with people who have those "values".

Why are the facts "difficult and unpleasant"??? Because if you have to avert your eyes from something, your gut is telling you that it's wrong.

Don't give me the bs about animals eating other animals for food. Sure we know that. Animals also commit incest, rape each other frequently and eat their young. We have evolved a sense of morality as human beings and find all these actions unacceptable. No living animals needs to suffer for our nutrition.

Matthew Scully has a great quote on this that goes something to this effect: "When a necessary evil stops being necessary what are you left with?"

The answer is evil.

I spent a lot of time with different tribes , all hunters and gatherers and I cannot remember one instance where delight was expressed at the death of an animal, delight that they would eat yes but the utomost respect was shown to the animal and they took only what they needed.


Thanks for calling my post BS. I now feel I can call yours BS too. I showed the greatest of respect to vegetarians and quite frankly I expected it in return. Simply because you have not encountered decent hunters does not mean they are not around. Maybe you were not looking too far and are simply trying to confirm your already made up mind. I could take you to hunts where you would not see a "sportsman" in sight, only a hunter. Noboday said anything about "noble" by the way. It is not about nobility. It is about common sense, respect for the animal and good animal husbandry.


And don't give me bs about evil and all that crap. Your everyday lifestyle as a human being will mean the destruction of entire groups of creatures and I suspect the destruction of people's environments, natural habitats and the economic enslavement of people around the world , unless you live an entirely self sustaining lifestyle you are creating evil simply by having a computer. So grow up and think before you speak. Do you ever think how your western lifetstyle is powered ?!? Come and talk to me about "evil" when you have actually thoguht a little bit more about it. Some of the metallic ores needed for your computers are causing savage wars and environmental destruction around the world , the disposal of your laptop and computers are done by kids in pakistan whose life expectancy due to leaks is severely limited. So stop being evil and get rid of anything western in your lifestyle then call my post bs.

[KingSamme]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

Huh, I'm surprised. I usually get along with veg's. I guess I horribly stereotype. I've crossed over to the dark side of pesci after 20 years of veg.

Guess I'm the exception that proves the rule.
So you're a pescetarian now, huh? I was a pescetarian for a few days before I went veggie

Originally Posted by ChessieMom

Meat is irreplaceable in my diet. Yes, it tastes good, but it's also a main source of protein - either chicken or turkey is part of my daily diet.

That's interesting, because I'm currently consuming about 200g of protein as part of my bulking up diet, and I have no trouble getting it from non-meat sources. 2 Veggie burgers contain about 35g of protein, for example. 1 Glass of milk = 10g of protein. 100g of pasta = 10-15g.

The average person needs 50-60g of protein a day.
So much for meat being "irreplaceable." (I hope you at least know that you shouldn't eat meat everyday).

The other items you mention are certainly no where near as tasty or as easy to prepare.

I can assure you, as a former fan of fast food, that veggie burgers, nuggets, and "meat"balls are just as tasty as real meat. And extremely easy to cook. Just a couple of minutes in a frying pan or microwave and they're done.

What you view as "supporting the killing of innocent animals" I view as supporting human life. Period. I had a herd of deer come through my back yard a few weeks ago - and I live in a subdivision, with a FENCED YARD. They came up on my deck, and I thought I had a freakin' burglar outside. If it had been legal to shoot them where I live, I expect they would be in a few people's freezers now. Deer are horribly overpopulated here, and they destroy crops and valuable property. Hunting season is welcome here.

Originally Posted by ChessieMom

Of course I don't "require" it. Where did I say that? There are a LOT of things that I don't require. If I lived on a deserted island, I am sure I could make do without meat, as well as a lot of other things. But I don't, and so I don't. No reason for me to do so.

You're rationalizing your actions. You are killing other living beings for no particularly good reason. And unless you feed exclusively on your game, you contribute to climate change as well.

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I think the issue is one of good animal husbandry and humane rearing and killing. Because if humans were not killing animals for meat most animals we do eat for meat would either not exist or would be so numerous they would simply die out of disease, overpopulation and in pretty appalling conditions. Deer for example are culled in Scotland not for the fun of it but because an overpopulation of them simply leads to them starving, contratcting diseases. They become not only a pest to humans but cannot survive in numbers if left to nature. Most places have lost natural predators and some animals' population has to be controlled and culling necessary. Culling Deer is the most humane form of management. Have you ever seen a starving animal too weak to feed and sickened ? Believe me a quick shot to the head is vastly preferable.

That might be the case for some species, but not for all of those we eat. Besides, it is also partly the result of our destroying habitats to build grazing fields...

But Nonetheless we are Omnivores. We are designed as omnivores. My digestive system is quite different than a rabbit or a cow at the end of the day.

That is irrelevant. What matters is that we don't need to eat meat to survive or be healthy.

Innocent animals die every day, Every time you shower you kill a million innocent bacteria, mites and organisms, walking means the death of millions of innocent insects crushed under your feet. At least I consume the animals who die because of me. Slugs and snails will die for your veggies... A Cow or a Deer is no more innocent than an Ant or Bee... Our ecosystem is one huge chain made of a myriad of links and all are interwoven and dependent one on another one way or another.

All those other species you mentioned will die regardless of whether a person is omnivore or a vegetarian. Omnivores take showers too, don't they? The only difference is that vegetarians and vegans don't support killing animals if it can be avoided.

I chose to eat meat. If that makes me a bad person then so be it. But at least I take responsibility and try to minimise suffering as much as I can. Hunting is an organic process. The animal lives a free range and happy life ( as happy a life as an animal can live) and is killed quickly and eaten. I would much rather be one of those deer killled by hunters than a child labourer in Haiti or Cambodia for Nike or Apple in the end. Or a worker with no healthcare, whose entire life has to revolve around working because their situation is so precarious. Slave labourer all my life or Deer about to be shot ? No contest for me.

You try to minimize the suffering of animals that you don't need to kill. There's nothing responsible about that.
That's like not needing slave labor but using it anyway just because you like looking at Chinese children hard at work.

Humans are whether we like it or not at the top of the food chain, with other predators. Eating animals is natural for us, you might think it wrong but it is natural. How we obtain this source of protein is what matters most IMO. It is about being humane and being responsible.

It's not a matter of what's natural and what's not. Just because we are capable of eating meat doesn't mean we have to do it if it's not necessary for our survival. Again, there is nothing human or responsible about killing other living beings when it's not necessary.

[KingSamme]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

And don't give me bs about evil and all that crap. Your everyday lifestyle as a human being will mean the destruction of entire groups of creatures and I suspect the destruction of people's environments, natural habitats and the economic enslavement of people around the world , unless you live an entirely self sustaining lifestyle you are creating evil simply by having a computer. So grow up and think before you speak. Do you ever think how your western lifetstyle is powered ?!? Come and talk to me about "evil" when you have actually thoguht a little bit more about it. Some of the metallic ores needed for your computers are causing savage wars and environmental destruction around the world , the disposal of your laptop and computers are done by kids in pakistan whose life expectancy due to leaks is severely limited. So stop being evil and get rid of anything western in your lifestyle then call my post bs.

And you think it's alright to add animal killing on top of all that?

[xxbabeechick]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I spent a lot of time with different tribes , all hunters and gatherers and I cannot remember one instance where delight was expressed at the death of an animal, delight that they would eat yes but the utomost respect was shown to the animal and they took only what they needed.

You don't live in arid land void of vegetation with lack of access to imported and domestic produce, do you? What's your excuse?

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

Thanks for calling my post BS. I now feel I can call yours BS too. I showed the greatest of respect to vegetarians and quite frankly I expected it in return.

When you believe killing animals for food purely because you enjoy the taste is morally wrong, how can I claim to show respect to your position? What type of sense would that make?

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

And don't give me bs about evil and all that crap. Your everyday lifestyle as a human being will mean the destruction of entire groups of creatures and I suspect the destruction of people's environments, natural habitats and the economic enslavement of people around the world , unless you live an entirely self sustaining lifestyle...

I know that being a human consumer in Western society I'm contributing to the destruction of the environment and animal habitats. Short of killing myself it would be impossible for me to stop doing that. However, without offing myself, I know that there are things I can do to limit animal suffering and environmental waste and a major component in this is refraining from purchasing and consuming carcasses, and promoting vegetarianism.

[xxbabeechick]

Originally Posted by KingSamme

And you think it's alright to add animal killing on top of all that?

Yeah, the logic since that by virtue of being a human you are causing environmental damage/waste/suffering is somehow an excuse to participate in more voluntary behavior with the same end result.

[Raena77]

Meat also has iron in it. I heard a study that women need to eat more steak. It was on the news.

[Kaffegal05]

Speaking of Roadkill:

The Roadkill Cookoff
The Roadkill Cook-Off - Yahoo!

*in a valley girl accent* "That is like so gross"

[xxbabeechick]

Originally Posted by Raena77

Meat also has iron in it. I heard a study that women need to eat more steak. It was on the news.

There are plenty of vegetarian sources of iron that do not cause animal suffering, environmental waste, and contain the high levels of saturated fat and cholesterol that meat does.

Iron in the Vegan Diet -- The Vegetarian Resource Group

Dried beans and dark green leafy vegetables are especially good sources of iron, even better on a per calorie basis than meat. Iron absorption is increased markedly by eating foods containing vitamin C along with foods containing iron. Vegetarians do not have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than do meat eaters.
Heme vs. Non-heme Iron

Iron is an essential nutrient because it is a central part of hemoglobin, which carries oxygen in the blood. Iron deficiency anemia is a worldwide health problem that is especially common in young women and in children.
Iron is found in food in two forms, heme and non-heme iron. Heme iron, which makes up 40 percent of the iron in meat, poultry, and fish, is well absorbed. Non-heme iron, 60 percent of the iron in animal tissue and all the iron in plants (fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts) is less well absorbed. Vegan diets only contain non-heme iron. Because of this, iron recommendations are higher for vegetarians (including vegans) than for non-vegetarians. The RDA for iron is 14 milligrams per day for vegetarian men and for women after menopause, and 33 milligrams per day for women prior to menopause 1.
Iron Status in Vegans

Some might expect that since the vegan diet contains a form of iron that is not that well absorbed, vegans might be prone to developing iron deficiency anemia. However, surveys of vegans 2,3 have found that iron deficiency anemia is no more common among vegetarians than among the general population although vegans tend to have lower iron stores 3.
The reason for the satisfactory iron status of many vegans may be that commonly eaten foods are high in iron, as Table 1 shows. In fact, if the amount of iron in these foods is expressed as milligrams of iron per 100 calories, many foods eaten by vegans are superior to animal-derived foods. This concept is illustrated in Table 2. For example, you would have to eat more than 1700 calories of sirloin steak to get the same amount of iron as found in 100 calories of spinach.
Another reason for the satisfactory iron status of vegans is that vegan diets are high in vitamin C. Vitamin C acts to markedly increase absorption of non-heme iron. Adding a vitamin C source to a meal increases non-heme iron absorption up to six-fold which makes the absorption of non-heme iron as good or better than that of heme iron 4.
Fortunately, many vegetables, such as broccoli and bok choy, which are high in iron, are also high in vitamin C so that the iron in these foods is very well absorbed. Commonly eaten combinations, such as beans and tomato sauce or stir-fried tofu and broccoli, also result in generous levels of iron absorption.
It is easy to obtain iron on a vegan diet. Table 3 shows several menus that would meet the RDA for iron.
Both calcium and tannins (found in tea and coffee) reduce iron absorption. Tea, coffee, and calcium supplements should be used several hours before a meal that is high in iron 5.
Table 1: Iron Content of Selected Vegan Foods
Food
Amount
Iron (mg)
Soybeans, cooked1 cup8.8Blackstrap molasses2 Tbsp7.2Lentils, cooked1 cup6.6Spinach, cooked1 cup6.4Quinoa, cooked1 cup6.3Tofu4 ounces6.0Bagel, enriched3 ounces5.2Tempeh1 cup4.8Lima beans, cooked1 cup4.4Swiss chard, cooked1 cup4.0Black beans, cooked1 cup3.6Pinto beans, cooked1 cup3.5Turnip greens, cooked1 cup3.2Chickpeas, cooked1 cup3.2Potato1 large3.2Kidney beans, cooked1 cup3.0Prune juice8 ounces3.0Beet greens, cooked1 cup2.7Tahini2 Tbsp2.7Veggie hot dog1 hot dog2.7Peas, cooked1 cup2.5Black-eyed peas, cooked1 cup2.3Cashews1/4 cup2.1Brussels sprouts, cooked1 cup1.9Bok choy, cooked1 cup1.8Bulgur, cooked1 cup1.7Raisins1/2 cup1.6Almonds1/4 cup1.5Apricots, dried15 halves1.4Veggie burger, commercial1 patty1.4Watermelon1/8 medium1.4Soy yogurt6 ounces1.1Tomato juice8 ounces1.0Green beans, cooked1 cup1.2Kale, cooked1 cup1.2Sunflower seeds1/4 cup1.2Broccoli, cooked1 cup1.1Millet, cooked1 cup1.1Sesame seeds2 Tbsp1.0Sources: USDA Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, Release 18, 2005 and Manufacturer's information.
The RDA for iron for vegetarians is 14 mg/day for adult men and for post-

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by Raena77

Meat also has iron in it. I heard a study that women need to eat more steak. It was on the news.

Increased Vitamin C consumption is one of the best things to do for iron deficiency (provided you eat some foods with iron in it). It helps with absorption.

[KingSamme]

You could even get all the iron you need and vitamin C from breakfast cereals.

E.g. Special K:



60g of Special K = 90% of the iron you need for the day.