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I'm going to bring up the word that many feminists and gender-conscious women hate and misunderstand: "the friendzone"
Many feminists and gender-conscious women thinks this word means: "hey, how dare you not consider me for sex and only as a friend? You are a woman I am attracted to and therefore I deserve to have sex with you!" Nobody acts this way except for the most narcissistic types of "Nice Guys".
What it ACTUALLY means is that many guys with social anxiety have no problem making female acquaintances and even female friends, but they are too afraid to and/or ignorant of the ways to send and receive signals that communicate romantic and sexual interest, and therefore the women never see them as potential dating partners. Is this the woman's fault? Not at all! Since the guy never showed her the proper signs.
I agree jillabean that guys need to know how to communicate with women as regular people, but if they ONLY know how to communicate with women as they do with their mom, sister, male friends, and coworkers, they will be "stuck in the friendzone", no misogyny or entitlement intended.
Of course if they stay at the beginning they won't get anywhere. That's what it's supposed to be, a beginning for men who are so socially anxious they can't even talk to a woman. It's meant to be a starting point... baby steps if you will. Just get comfortable talking to the opposite sex first, then, when that's easy, go for the more difficult flirting, etc.
Perfect example of someone who can't be arsed to think of people as individuals. I'm a feminist, and I think men are groovy. I've had long-term relationships, short-term relationships, had casual flings, been married, left my marriage on a good note with my ex, been on hundreds of dates with dozens of men over the course of my life (heck, probably before I got out of my 20s), will date and establish a relationship again when I'm ready and in a good place for it. Don't confuse feminists not liking men who think like you with feminists not liking men in general.
But go on. Do tell me who I like.
Oh dont worry Lilac, I wasnt confusing feminists who think like you with being real women at all...lol read my post closer...I never mentioned the 2 in the same sentence.
figured id stoop to your level since you want to try to single me out and start throwing little personal jabs and all
My question is, if you are a feminist, what advice and resources would you give to socially anxious/awkward men who want to enter into a heterosexual relationship? What would you do if you were in a socially anxious man's place, and don't want to die alone, yet don't want to join in the misogyny party?
I'd advise him to work on his self-esteem. Methods & strategies may cover up the inner issues, but not usually for the long-term, as far as sustaining an authentic & mutually satisfying relationship. I believe the changes have to start from within & then they will work their way out & the positive changes will be natural, not a contrived image or scheme to achieve a goal.
The advice to work on self-esteem would not simply be that vague statement. I have a lot of ideas on how to work on self-esteem, some employed by myself (a woman) as I struggle in that area too. So I'd give him more specific pointers. Some of it is basic CBT - replacing negative thinking & behavioral patterns with positive ones as they occur. Visualizing positive outcomes & how you will be in a situation (in a positive way). Not comparing yourself to others or monitoring yourself - just being aware & noticing things as they happen without judgment of yourself or others. Etc.
I'd encourage him to approach women more as fellow humans than potential partners...this can ease up awkwardness from too much sexual tension. Some sexual tension is good, but for awkward people it can create more of an impasse than excitement. So there needs to be a balance between being able to connect by being comfortable with yourself & creating some tension for excitement.
Next, they need to consider what kind of woman they really want, beyond the physical, and what kind of man they need to be to attract that. If you say "I just want someone who is cute & nice", well that is insulting to a woman. She doesn't want you to want her because you aim low & are easy to please. So work on discerning what attracts you to someone that makes them feel special. They need to sense you see something in them that others do not. OR don't focus so much on appearance & then complain when no one looks pasts yours. The trophy girl may not actually fulfill your needs, which is why you need to truly know them, beyond sexual desire.
Then these men should consider what can they bring to the table that would appeal to such a woman & meet her needs. Here is where you need to drop the "shoulds" (she SHOULD like that I am X, but instead she goes for N!) and instead put yourself in someone else's shoes to grasp why they would feel as they do. So work on empathy, defining your needs & desires, assessing yourself realistically, and developing more attractive qualities & lessening the less attractive ones.
Becoming more open helps you not judge others, which will also breed more self-judgment. We often project how we feel, so if we are judgmental & dismissive towards others, then we may fear they are towards us, which can fuel anxiety in social situations. Openness also broadens the pool of potential partners. It reminds us that there is a great variety of people, so not all women are the same (and if not, then how can you blanketly hate/fear/mistrust them?).
Polishing social skills helps. This doesn't mean being fake or having to hang out in venues which are not to your tastes, but it does mean broadening out & learning to communicate in a better & more appealing manner in social situations. This includes body language & other behaviors beyond conversation skills.
Lastly, I notice a lot of men pay little attention to their physical appearance. Without going to an extreme, they could put more thought & care into their dress, grooming & fitness.
Oh wait, I lied - some more: Take action! Start putting yourself in new situations & take "risks" to talk to others you normally would not (whether there's any romantic potential or not).
It's good to start interacting & conversing with women that you have no romantic interest in, because it can help you to see women as people, fellow humans, and to become comfortable talking to women. Think grandmas & children, etc. Women also notice when men give value to others via attention when those people seem to offer nothing in return, aka, he has nothing to gain from it. This is very attractive.
Working on self-esteem helps you to not define your innate value as a human by incidences of rejection or even acceptance. This also helps you not resent someone else when they exercise their right of refusal - they are not judging you as a person, they are not deeming themselves too good, etc. It's really no reflection on the personal worth of either of you.
Women signal interest all different ways. Some do go up to a guy. Some try to catch his eye and smile (men do this, too). Some will "orbit". Some initiate small talk. There are all kinds of m.o.'s.
I'm going to bring up the word that many feminists and gender-conscious women hate and misunderstand: "the friendzone"
Many feminists and gender-conscious women thinks this word means: "hey, how dare you not consider me for sex and only as a friend? You are a woman I am attracted to and therefore I deserve to have sex with you!" Nobody acts this way except for the most narcissistic types of "Nice Guys".
No, that's not it... it's "I befriended this woman I am attracted to in hopes of it becoming more, but I have never sent any clear signal of romantic interest. Still, I am such a great guy, she should become attracted to me & this friendship should be growing into more. Since it isn't, I have no need to maintain any friendship with her". AKA, his befriending of the woman had ulterior motive, and he never really valued her as a friend, yet he acted as if he did. This is what is known as "using" someone & being deceptive.
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What it ACTUALLY means is that many guys with social anxiety have no problem making female acquaintances and even female friends, but they are too afraid to and/or ignorant of the ways to send and receive signals that communicate romantic and sexual interest, and therefore the women never see them as potential dating partners. Is this the woman's fault? Not at all! Since the guy never showed her the proper signs.
Agreed, but their failure to communicate can make them appear to be manipulative or deceptive.
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I agree jillabean that guys need to know how to communicate with women as regular people, but if they ONLY know how to communicate with women as they do with their mom, sister, male friends, and coworkers, they will be "stuck in the friendzone", no misogyny or entitlement intended.
The idea here is to view the woman as a person, as you do with women you have not sexualized. It doesn't mean to make interactions devoid of all flirting signals, but to not objectify the woman or see her as some "other" that's almost like an enemy to conquer.
I'm pretty thick in the head when it comes to flirting (oh that's right, women have anxieties & awkwardness also! we're humans! ), but some basics are light, non-threatening touching, slightly prolonged eye contact, open arms/hands (as opposed to crossed, in pockets, etc), etc.
The missing piece not mentioned is paying attention to the signals someone else sends. Those women you got to know well over time & began to think were really special, then discovered they just didn't feel that way about you? You ignored their body language & other responses to you all that time, which indicated no attraction. Meanwhile, another female friend may indeed like you as a romantic potential, and you've not picked up on her subtle clues. Women aren't necessarily subtle on purpose - it's more of a natural response than intentionally sending out cues.
Socially anxious and awkward men often become 40 year old virgins. Although a few of these people are dishonest "Nice Guys" who hope that being nice will help them get laid (which never works),
I can go on and on about why and how these guys are "Nice guys." And I can also go on and on about why and how Elliot Rodgers happened.
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Originally Posted by usuario
others simply want to love and be loved, and want to improve their own personality and strategies to be able to get into a long term relationship without having to resort to becoming women-haters (misogynists).
I consider what you said Nice guys as well.
A man at his core, will improve his OWN life because HE knows that he is the only person on the planet who will truly be there and care for him. Men, at their core, will put their lives first. This is not to say they become selfish or neglecting.
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Originally Posted by usuario
These men may ask feminists for advice, but it seems like many feminists can only tell men what NOT to do, and not what TO DO. Or they may give good theoretical advice without any practical considerations, like "respect her", "ask for consent", "become a friend she can trust", "know your boundaries", etc., rather than actual methods. Some feminists even go so far as to proudly claim that they couldn't give a crap about these "losers", that this is outside the scope of feminism, and that these men might as well go off themselves.
A general rule of thumb, is that one cannot give advice if they do not know how such events work. That last statement about feminists outshining these type of men, is the cruelest yet ironic thing I've seen.
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Originally Posted by usuario
I feel like understandably, many of these men turn to the pickup artist industry, which is notorious for using highly misogynistic language that degrades women and treats them as game pieces to collect rather than actual people.
I agree but much of this industry claims about "how to attract women" is for the most part, true. These "nice guys" or "weak men" would not have to turn to this if they simply knew how to act like real men. Not the ones giving and stalking women in the T.V shows and movies.
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Originally Posted by usuario
My question is, if you are a feminist, what advice and resources would you give to socially anxious/awkward men who want to enter into a heterosexual relationship? What would you do if you were in a socially anxious man's place, and don't want to die alone, yet don't want to join in the misogyny party?
Feminist cannot give sound advice to this question usuario. Why? Because they represent, at its core, the opposite of what you're asking. There is one place that a weak man can go and that is the route me and the other 5% men have taken. This place is ONLY for the men who are not ignorant nor corrupted by any other means. These area is meant for the strong, if they're not ready to learn then they will live their life that way.
Well men are dealt with the card of responsibility for everything
Really? Everything? If it were true, we wouldn't even have dating. Just arranged marriages where fathers pair off their daughters to other men because, you know, women wouldn't do anything to meet men.
Guess what, guys didn't approach me at all in my early 20s... ever. Not even a flirt or a cheesy pick up line. And I was too shy to approach them. Does that mean guys in their 20s don't approach? Of course not! It just means they didn't approach or flirt with me (BTW, I learned that my shyiness came across as being "withcy" or cold. Once I got over my shyness, things improved a lot). Fact is, just because a woman hasn't approached you or flirted with you, doesn't mean women don't approach or flirt.
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), but some basics are light, non-threatening touching, slightly prolonged eye contact, open arms/hands (as opposed to crossed, in pockets, etc), etc. 