Says someone who cheated (dating, children, call, Latin)

[PassTheChocolate]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

??? Staying in an unhappy marriage cannot be compared to cheating. They're two, totally, different things.

Pay attention, your kids are no less an excuse to stay in an unhappy marriage as said marriage is an excuse to cheat.

Happiness is a choice. If you can't be happy where you are planted, you can't be happy anywhere.

People who choose to be happy are not going to ignore the reality of their situation. Grin and bear it but don't call it happiness.

Changing your address, your lover, your shoes, whatever, isn't going to MAKE you happy.

Ask all those divorced people you studied if that is actually the case.

The only way everyone is going to be unhappy if mom and dad are unhappy is if mon and dad don't know how to act like adults. You can peacefully coexist. Treat each other with the respect due all human beings. Keep your eye on and work towards mutual goals. You don't even have to be unhappy. Once you accept a situation for what it is and stop trying to change it into something it's not, there's no reason to be unhappy at all about it.

Accept the situation for what it is....abusive, neglectful, unfaithful. You already said you are in an unhappy marriage. Your husband doesn't love you, never did. You don't trust him. Now, let's throw a party. YAY.

You may think it's stupid to stay in a crappy marriage but that doesn't make it stupid. It just means you think it is. You could be wrong.

You may think cheaters are liars, don't care about their spouses, don't have any morals, do it to hurt their spouses, have flawed character and are horrible parents because they don't care about anyone but themselves because they don't care and never cared and never loved their spouses because they are selfish and don't care and never did. Doesn't make it true. It just means you think it is. You could be wrong.

It's entirely possible that parents acting like adults and staying together for the kids are what's best.

Of course it is, but don't think your kids are stupid, or that you are that clever to play it off so well. You are not good at convincing people here and we don't know you outside of what you write.

We have plenty of data to show divorce hurts kids.

Your words:

We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that divorce hurts kids.

Now this:

The research on divorce is not B***hit. We know that children of divorce are more likely to have trouble in relationships. They are more likely to be divorced themselves. They are more likely to walk away if things get tough than work things out because they've seen modeled that you just leave.

The bullsh*t is in your statement, not the research. "More likely" is not "beyond the shadow of a doubt" that it hurts them.

And what is "tough" to you is hell for most women. I'd say being in a loveless and abusive situation with a man who lied about loving you and left to be with another woman is pretty unacceptable. Put it all in a handbook for your girls and call it Stand By Your Man.

And there are more reasons to be married than you're in love. My grandmother claimed to have fallen in and out of love with my grandfather many times over the years (but never cheated, imagine that ). Who knows what tomorrow brings.

If you are that unhappy in your marriage that you have the desire to cheat, it is not worth saving. Your words. He cheated, you both stayed. Guess your marriage is the only one worth saving, it suddenly has value because it is yours. He is a worthy enough parent and a worthwhile enough human being to keep around, because he is your husband.

I have no idea why you think the kids will, automatically, be miserable if the parents aren't happily married.

Quote where I said that. I dare ya.

I'm not playing martyr. I choose to do what I choose to do for the reasons I choose to do it.

Your "reasons" are excuses to others, but you the only one entitled to them when you bash an entire group for what you perceive as an "excuse".

It is important to me to provide the best possible environment for my kids. I beleive I do that best by staying. No martyr here. You're the only one thinking in terms of me being a martyr. I'm not. Neither are my kids.

True, who cares what I think. It's your life and your family's to ruin.

[CESpeed]

You have given the most pathetic reason for staying married. That's how much you care about your kids you would subject them to a loveless marriage? What a great example. Hey kids you are not entitled to be happy, you should be miserable and unhappy all of your life. You have to be a martyr and be in an unhappy marriage that way you can lord it over the world that you are morally superior to them because you were in an unhappy marriage and didn't cheat.

You're the greatest.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by CESpeed

You have given the most pathetic reason for staying married. That's how much you care about your kids you would subject them to a loveless marriage? What a great example. Hey kids you are not entitled to be happy, you should be miserable and unhappy all of your life. You have to be a martyr and be in an unhappy marriage that way you can lord it over the world that you are morally superior to them because you were in an unhappy marriage and didn't cheat.

You're the greatest.

I'm not subjecting my kids to a loveless marriage. I'm subjecting them to a two parent home . They'd have to be in a loveless marriage to be subjected to one and then it will be by their doing not mine. Once you have kids, marriage is about more than just love. It's also about what's best for all parties involved. I don't know why he stays or if he will for that matter. He's already left once and taken up with someone else so he's set precident. I know why I stay. I prefer my and my children's life this way than the alternative. That's usually why adults stay in relationships. The lesser of the evils. Things were a lot worse before he left and I stayed then because I preferred a two parent household for my kids. Why would I leave now when things are actually better with him?

Kids are only miserable if parents make the situation miserable. Being adults and not making the situation miserable is an option. Not many want to try it but it is an option.

I see no reason to put my kids through a divorce as long as their father and I can get along. As long as he wants to stay and work on things, he's welcome to do so. I'm just not holding my breath. History has a tendency to repeat itself so I won't commit this time. This time it's day by day.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate

Pay attention, your kids are no less an excuse to stay in an unhappy marriage as said marriage is an excuse to cheat.



People who choose to be happy are not going to ignore the reality of their situation. Grin and bear it but don't call it happiness.



Ask all those divorced people you studied if that is actually the case.



Accept the situation for what it is....abusive, neglectful, unfaithful. You already said you are in an unhappy marriage. Your husband doesn't love you, never did. You don't trust him. Now, let's throw a party. YAY.



You may think cheaters are liars, don't care about their spouses, don't have any morals, do it to hurt their spouses, have flawed character and are horrible parents because they don't care about anyone but themselves because they don't care and never cared and never loved their spouses because they are selfish and don't care and never did. Doesn't make it true. It just means you think it is. You could be wrong.



Of course it is, but don't think your kids are stupid, or that you are that clever to play it off so well. You are not good at convincing people here and we don't know you outside of what you write.



Your words:



Now this:



The bullsh*t is in your statement, not the research. "More likely" is not "beyond the shadow of a doubt" that it hurts them.

And what is "tough" to you is hell for most women. I'd say being in a loveless and abusive situation with a man who lied about loving you and left to be with another woman is pretty unacceptable. Put it all in a handbook for your girls and call it Stand By Your Man.



If you are that unhappy in your marriage that you have the desire to cheat, it is not worth saving. Your words. He cheated, you both stayed. Guess your marriage is the only one worth saving, it suddenly has value because it is yours. He is a worthy enough parent and a worthwhile enough human being to keep around, because he is your husband.



Quote where I said that. I dare ya.



Your "reasons" are excuses to others, but you the only one entitled to them when you bash an entire group for what you perceive as an "excuse".



True, who cares what I think. It's your life and your family's to ruin.

What negative behavior am I excusing with my reasons? I haven't done anything wrong. Unless you think trying to keep a marriage together is wrong, which seems silly to me. You're supposed to try and make them work.

You'll have to ask him why he's willing to try and work things out. I know if I were willing to cheat, I would see nothing in the marriage worth working to save. (I'm not the cheater, remember. It's the cheater who sees nothing worth saving not the cheatee.) I'm aware of the risk. He already decided once it wasn't worth it and took up with someone else and he may again. That will be his choice if he chooses that path. I have nothing to do with that.

Why do I need to think my kids are stupid? No one is trying to fool them. If their parents are willing to work on their differences, why is it a negative for them? As I've said over and over the only reason kids would be miserable is if the adults didn't act like adults and made the situation miserable. You don't have to choose that path. No one is pretending we're madly in love. So why do you think we're fooling the kids?

Split hairs much. Okay, make that beyond reasonable doubt that divorce hurts kids. Unless you are removing children from an abuse situation, divorce is the greater of the evils. They have parents modeling NOT working things out. Parents who'd rather destroy their family because they're not happy (can you spell selfish?). Yeah, with role models like that, I can see why children of divorce have relationship issues. Both boys and girls are more likely to be divorced themselves. Girls are more likely to be sexually promsicuous and both boys and girls more likely to use drugs and not do as well in school.

Divorce is the last stop not the first. It's supposed to mean you tried everything to work things out. At this point, I see no reason to leave. I see no improvement in my children's lives if I do, only harm. I see enough harm in my own life that I don't care to do it. I don't want my children splitting time between parents homes. I want them to have a home of their own. That is of value to me. If their father chooses to stay, he chooses to stay. If he finds antoher skirt to chase, he finds another skirt to chase. The ball is in his court.

It's not grin and bear it. You can choose to be happy where you are. I did not say happily married. I'm talking about being happy as a person. Concentrating on what you have in your life that is positive and not letting the negative get you down. Happiness really is a choice. Some of the happiest people in the world are in situations many others would consider miserable. The trick is to realize that your happiness doesn't depend on your situation. It depends on you choosing to be happy. Just because one part of life is not perfect doesn't mean life isn't good.

[Ivorytickler]

"You may think cheaters are liars, don't care about their spouses, don't have any morals, do it to hurt their spouses, have flawed character and are horrible parents because they don't care about anyone but themselves because they don't care and never cared and never loved their spouses because they are selfish and don't care and never did. Doesn't make it true. It just means you think it is. You could be wrong."

Yes, I could be wrong. Cheating could be a sign of devotion to your spouse. You could be doing it because it will make them so happy to know you slept with someone else. It could be a wonderful example to set for your children to follow.

Yeah, right. Kind of hard to argue the virtues of having an affair.

"Ask all those divorced people you studied if that is actually the case. "

I don't have to. Studies on happiness show that appx. one year after making a major change people revert back to the happiness level they had at the time before the change. I have no doubt that people who have themselves convinced they'll be happy if they get out of a marriage do feel happier, initially. However, research shows they don't stay that way.

From what I've read, there is only one way to alter your happiness preset and that is to make a conscious effort to do things every day that are little pick me ups. Hobbies, talking to friends, getting out into the sunshine and fresh air... Or you can convince yourself if I just change this or that THEN I'll be happy. Chances are, you won't be. Others don't make us unhappy. We choose to be unhappy.

I was markedly happier when my husband left but not because he left. I found myself with all this empty time when the kids were with him and started filling it with the things I like to do. That really picked up my mood. I've kept doing them since we've gotten back together. Funny how when you take care of yourself, you stop looking to others to do it for you. I think the mistake we make is expecting our spouses to make us happy instead of expecting ourselves to make us happy. The only person I control is me.

I'm going to have to remember the name of the book that was out a few years back on happiness research. Grandma pretty much summed it up when she said "Happiness is a choice" and Grandma didn't even have a high school diploma let alone a PhD. Smart woman.

[PassTheChocolate]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I haven't done anything wrong. Unless you think trying to keep a marriage together is wrong, which seems silly to me. You're supposed to try and make them work.

You have done nothing wrong. That's a shocker. I'd call it a day, whether I was your husband or you, you'd both be toast. It's my opinion, and I'm stickin to it.

Of course it is not wrong to keep a marriage together, not in every case. In your case, I think it is. Again, it is your life and your family's to ruin.

You'll have to ask him why he's willing to try and work things out.

Doesn't really matter why, not like it's of any value to you when you are refusing to give it any weight or have no idea yourself. Seems you are all too happy to accept his effort to make it work yet refuse to even acknowledge it. How immasculating.

(I'm not the cheater, remember. It's the cheater who sees nothing worth saving not the cheatee.)

Because you say so?

I'm aware of the risk. He already decided once it wasn't worth it and took up with someone else and he may again. That will be his choice if he chooses that path. I have nothing to do with that.

If you firmly believe he cannot be trusted and you stay with him, you become a willing participant. Gift wrap him now.

Why do I need to think my kids are stupid? No one is trying to fool them. If their parents are willing to work on their differences, why is it a negative for them?

You really have no idea how much you contradict yourself. You either tell them/allow them to see and know all that has happened, or you keep it from them. One way you are exposing them to the nonsense, or you are leading them to believe things are not what they actually are. That is fooling them. I am simply telling you kids are not stupid. They will pick up on it at some point, if they haven't already.

As I've said over and over the only reason kids would be miserable is if the adults didn't act like adults and made the situation miserable.

Again, because YOU say so, over and over doesn't make it fact. Your perception is your reality, it isn't necessarily reality. And yes, there is plenty wrong with your perception on many counts.

No one is pretending we're madly in love.

If you're going to fool them, that would be the ideal way. Otherwise, you can teach them that they can have a room-mate any time without having to be married.

Parents who'd rather destroy their family because they're not happy (can you spell selfish?)

How dare you hypocritically defend your position ad nauseum and presume to call everyone who doesn't do what you do, selfish? Some people feel they have more morals and self-respect than to stay in your position.

Divorce is the last stop not the first. It's supposed to mean you tried everything to work things out.

Except when you have the desire to cheat. Then it is the ONLY answer.

At this point, I see no reason to leave. I see no improvement in my children's lives if I do, only harm. I see enough harm in my own life that I don't care to do it. I don't want my children splitting time between parents homes. I want them to have a home of their own. That is of value to me. If their father chooses to stay, he chooses to stay. If he finds antoher skirt to chase, he finds another skirt to chase. The ball is in his court.

He can't be trusted and the ball is in his court? You're willing to risk more infidelity, neglect and abuse and risk them finding out (or finding out more) - because working it out is of value to you. But you're not working anything out, you are simply co-exisiting, acting like "adults". You don't even know why he is there. Amazing.

It's not grin and bear it. You can choose to be happy where you are. I did not say happily married. I'm talking about being happy as a person.

Who are you kidding? Denial is a powerful thing, but it is not happiness. And from all I have seen you inflict here, it is painfully evident that you are not happy as a person.

Concentrating on what you have in your life that is positive and not letting the negative get you down. Happiness really is a choice. Some of the happiest people in the world are in situations many others would consider miserable. The trick is to realize that your happiness doesn't depend on your situation. It depends on you choosing to be happy. Just because one part of life is not perfect doesn't mean life isn't good.

Choosing to live in poverty to serve the Lord is happiness. You are not Mother Teresa. No one seeks out a life of abuse, neglect or infidelity. But they do settle for it, suck it up and accept it. Again, no glory in it. Again, denial. And again, your deal. Have at it.

I'd be a cheating, lying, non caring, no value having low life in that situation. And proud of it. As long as I behave like an adult in front of the kids, all will be fine.

[PassTheChocolate]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Yes, I could be wrong. Cheating could be a sign of devotion to your spouse. You could be doing it because it will make them so happy to know you slept with someone else. It could be a wonderful example to set for your children to follow.

Yeah, right. Kind of hard to argue the virtues of having an affair.

No one said having an affair is virtuous. There is nothing adult, mature, moral or intelligent about continuously distorting the truth and creating fantasies to back your arguments.

The bottom line is that you, dear Ivory, are not an in a position to slam people the way you do. Pushing people beneath you only creates the illusion that you are above them; it doesn't make it so. So, when you spew over and over about how horrible cheaters are and how they think, feel and live, take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself whether or not you are worthy of all the perfection you pontificate.

[virgode]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

What negative behavior am I excusing with my reasons? I haven't done anything wrong. Unless you think trying to keep a marriage together is wrong, which seems silly to me. You're supposed to try and make them work.

You'll have to ask him why he's willing to try and work things out. I know if I were willing to cheat, I would see nothing in the marriage worth working to save. (I'm not the cheater, remember. It's the cheater who sees nothing worth saving not the cheatee.) I'm aware of the risk. He already decided once it wasn't worth it and took up with someone else and he may again. That will be his choice if he chooses that path. I have nothing to do with that.

Why do I need to think my kids are stupid? No one is trying to fool them. If their parents are willing to work on their differences, why is it a negative for them? As I've said over and over the only reason kids would be miserable is if the adults didn't act like adults and made the situation miserable. You don't have to choose that path. No one is pretending we're madly in love. So why do you think we're fooling the kids?

Split hairs much. Okay, make that beyond reasonable doubt that divorce hurts kids. Unless you are removing children from an abuse situation, divorce is the greater of the evils. They have parents modeling NOT working things out. Parents who'd rather destroy their family because they're not happy (can you spell selfish?). Yeah, with role models like that, I can see why children of divorce have relationship issues. Both boys and girls are more likely to be divorced themselves. Girls are more likely to be sexually promsicuous and both boys and girls more likely to use drugs and not do as well in school.

Divorce is the last stop not the first. It's supposed to mean you tried everything to work things out. At this point, I see no reason to leave. I see no improvement in my children's lives if I do, only harm. I see enough harm in my own life that I don't care to do it. I don't want my children splitting time between parents homes. I want them to have a home of their own. That is of value to me. If their father chooses to stay, he chooses to stay. If he finds antoher skirt to chase, he finds another skirt to chase. The ball is in his court.

It's not grin and bear it. You can choose to be happy where you are. I did not say happily married. I'm talking about being happy as a person. Concentrating on what you have in your life that is positive and not letting the negative get you down. Happiness really is a choice. Some of the happiest people in the world are in situations many others would consider miserable. The trick is to realize that your happiness doesn't depend on your situation. It depends on you choosing to be happy. Just because one part of life is not perfect doesn't mean life isn't good.

Ivoryticler,
I have just one question I'd like to ask. If your Husband were to cheat again and said he wanted to work on the marriage would you still comply??

[CESpeed]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I'm not subjecting my kids to a loveless marriage. I'm subjecting them to a two parent home . They'd have to be in a loveless marriage to be subjected to one and then it will be by their doing not mine. Once you have kids, marriage is about more than just love. It's also about what's best for all parties involved. I don't know why he stays or if he will for that matter. He's already left once and taken up with someone else so he's set precident. I know why I stay. I prefer my and my children's life this way than the alternative. That's usually why adults stay in relationships. The lesser of the evils. Things were a lot worse before he left and I stayed then because I preferred a two parent household for my kids. Why would I leave now when things are actually better with him?

Kids are only miserable if parents make the situation miserable. Being adults and not making the situation miserable is an option. Not many want to try it but it is an option.

I see no reason to put my kids through a divorce as long as their father and I can get along. As long as he wants to stay and work on things, he's welcome to do so. I'm just not holding my breath. History has a tendency to repeat itself so I won't commit this time. This time it's day by day.

If you think your children watching you be in a miserable relationship doesn't affect them? You are clueless. You and your husband are thei example of a relationship. It's sick and twsited that you want your children to have unhealthy relationships so you can say "My children grew up in a two parent household". You people with superiority complexes chafe my hide.

You couldn't care less about your kids. You're willing to put them through living with dysfunctional parents, but not a divorce?

With your attitude, I'd like to introduce him to his next mistress.

[CESpeed]

But I do want to thank you for helping me make up my mind. I was waffling about starting my new life and going back into socail work, but after reading your posts I am reminded that children need to be protected from warped thinking and that's why I got my degree in the first place. Thanks to you, I am going back into social work/therapy to help people who have grown up in homes like yours.