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Old 11-03-2009, 08:50 AM
 
8,518 posts, read 15,643,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday007 View Post
I also see you keep omitting the portions of data that speak to your assertions - so here it is again.

85 to 95% of people work out their own parenting and custody - so most never see the light of day in a court room or are decided by a judge. So, you can't just guess and use it as fact. Or use a story from a couple guys who never contested it as fact for all men.

Now the most crucial part - Of the 15% of contested cases where the man files for custody 70% are awareded custody. 70% is higher than half.

Now, I didn't just pull that out of my rear end, nor is it based on people I know. My posts have citations and dates - which are relevant. They aren't just anecdotes - but I've got plenty of those too. So, maybe you should have read the whole thread so I didn't have to keep repeating myself over and over. (rolls eyes, departs).
I think it's great that you're citing empirical data and not just relying on anecdotal evidence. The problem is the statistics you're offering don't tell the whole story. 85-95% of couples work out their own custody arrangements. Good for them. But what that figure doesn't show is how many of the men did so because they were convinced they would lose a custody battle if it went to court. If I'm divorcing my wife and I'm certain that the court will award her custody, then obviously I'm not going to go that route. It's in my best interests to settle it out of court. As for the remaining 15% where it does go to court, 70% of the time custody is awarded to the man. But did it ever occur to you that in that 15%, maybe the reason the men took it to court was because they were sure they'd win? Maybe there was something about their partner that they knew no court would ever overlook, like drug use, abusive behavior, etc.

Statistics are great, but they rarely tell the full story and it's very easy to draw the wrong conclusion. Just look at voting stats. 50% of Americans don't vote. Should we take that to mean they don't care about what their government does? Or maybe they don't vote because they're convinced it won't change anything.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:21 AM
 
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Like I said before, if you bothered to even read your own thread and open the links to the information available you will find more detailed information. Here is just one of the links (out of several) I posted. You just need to open them.

- Batterers get custody disturbingly often (see: Leadership Council on Child Abuse, Stop Family Violence). An estimated 58,000 kids go into unsupervised care each year. Domestic Violence is given little if any weight in Family Court (despite myths to the contrary).


How is custody determined in a divorce case? If you are facing a possible custody battle, you need to realize that the judge will consider the best interest of the child above all the other issues. You can find out the specific factors considered by looking up the child custody laws for your state. You can also learn more about how to get child custody by reading the following questions and answers:
[CENTER]How does the judge decide who is the better parent? [/CENTER]
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:29 AM
 
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Too bad these stats don't explain the mindset of the other 85%. The fact that you keep throwing out that number suggests you think the conclusion it points to is obvious. But it isn't. All we're seeing is that 85% don't go to court. But unless you start interviewing all those couples, you'll never know if there's more going on than what the numbers show.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:31 AM
 
26,142 posts, read 31,189,782 times
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Read the above post and read your thread and the links provided. Rather than 'guessing.'

And I already posted that there is more than one reason why people file for divorce and cited several examples - and stated you cannot possibly know what every man is thinking based on a couple people you happen to know. So, I don't know what you're barking at me about, I'm not the one making the presumptions and statements declaring what men are thinking. Like I posted, "There are endless reasons."

Last edited by Thursday007; 11-03-2009 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 11-03-2009, 11:17 AM
 
8,518 posts, read 15,643,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday007 View Post
Read the above post and read your thread and the links provided. Rather than 'guessing.'

And I already posted that there is more than one reason why people file for divorce and cited several examples - and stated you cannot possibly know what every man is thinking based on a couple people you happen to know. So, I don't know what you're barking at me about, I'm not the one making the presumptions and statements declaring what men are thinking. Like I posted, "There are endless reasons."
Actually you are making presumptions. First, you cite the 85% figure as evidence that the family law is not in fact slanted towards women. Problem with that argument is that it completely omits the thinking behind men's decision to settle out of court. Second, you list all the reasons given for why marriages end. The problem there is that you accept those reasons at face value and assume the person who answered the question was being completely candid. I don't cause I know how people lie when asked difficult questions, especially when the truth makes them look bad. I also know that many of the answers are code for other issues. It's easier to tell someone your marriage fell apart over financial issues than to have to admit that you cheated or that your partner became really unattractive.
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Old 11-03-2009, 11:34 AM
 
26,142 posts, read 31,189,782 times
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For the last time, your post here presumes what men are thinking and feeling and my post clearly states that you cannot possibly know. So, bark at yourself and argue with yourself over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Actually the reason few men file for divorce is because they feel divorce law is unfairly slanted towards women. A lot of men will stay in an unhappy marriage because they don't want to lose everything they have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday007 View Post
And just for the record, Denny, here's what I've seen the most of:

Infidelity - "Why file for divorce when you can continue to have it both ways"

Substance Abuse - should I stay and help 'for better or worse' or just bail?

And more and more people staying together 'for the sake of the kids' until they turn 18 in order to give them as normal a childhood as possible.

Not one I've come across that was reluctant to file due to being fleeced by the other party.

You can go into infinity to try and 'guess' all the reasons people divorce. Sure they may file "Infidelity' as the reason, but what actually caused the infidelity? The reasons are endless. It's no different than a death certificate. It could say "Massive Head Trauma" but it won't say "Hit by a bus' which is what caused the head trauma.

So, you can't speak for what all, or even most, men are thinking.
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Old 11-03-2009, 12:52 PM
 
8,518 posts, read 15,643,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday007 View Post
For the last time, your post here presumes what men are thinking and feeling and my post clearly states that you cannot possibly know. So, bark at yourself and argue with yourself over it.
False. You're the one guilty of making presumptions. First, you presume that all the people who came to custody agreements outside of court didn't feel that family law is slanted. The statistics you offer show absolutely no insight into the mindset of those men. Second, you presume that all respondents to surveys are honest about why their marriages fell apart. But such surveys are notoriously unreliable since they rely on the truthfulness of respondents. We could go back and forth on this for days. The fact remains is that you're citing statistics that don't tell the full story.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:06 PM
 
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LOL, seriously can you read? The stats I quoted are factual percentages taken from court records. Not a survey. None of them indicate the mindset of anyone nor do they claim to, they are what they are. This is beyond ridiculous and you're on your own so post away:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
Actually the reason few men file for divorce is because they feel divorce law is unfairly slanted towards women. A lot of men will stay in an unhappy marriage because they don't want to lose everything they have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday007 View Post
And just for the record, Denny, here's what I've seen the most of:

Infidelity - "Why file for divorce when you can continue to have it both ways"

Substance Abuse - should I stay and help 'for better or worse' or just bail?

And more and more people staying together 'for the sake of the kids' until they turn 18 in order to give them as normal a childhood as possible.

Not one I've come across that was reluctant to file due to being fleeced by the other party.

You can go into infinity to try and 'guess' all the reasons people divorce. Sure they may file "Infidelity' as the reason, but what actually caused the infidelity? The reasons are endless. It's no different than a death certificate. It could say "Massive Head Trauma" but it won't say "Hit by a bus' which is what caused the head trauma.

So, you can't speak for what all, or even most, men are thinking.
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:02 PM
 
8,518 posts, read 15,643,526 times
Reputation: 7712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday007 View Post
LOL, seriously can you read? The stats I quoted are factual percentages taken from court records. Not a survey. None of them indicate the mindset of anyone nor do they claim to, they are what they are. This is beyond ridiculous and you're on your own so post away:
The only person here who can't read is you. Court records are based on people's official statements. Do you assume that everyone tells the truth when they file for divorce? Second, they don't indicate the mindset, which is precisely my point. But you keep throwing that 85% figure out as if its sufficient evidence to prove intent. But it isn't. What's ridiculous is that you can't admit that those numbers are inconclusive. Seriously, grow up and learn how to read. And don't toss out statistics like you're an expert until you learn what they mean and don't mean.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:08 AM
 
26,142 posts, read 31,189,782 times
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I'm pretty sure this will get lost on you, but I was just cleaning up stuff in my computer and came across tbe last of this and decided to unload it:

But even the courts are increasingly favoring joint custody, instead of choosing one parent over the other. Recently a divorced couple in Boston made headlines when an Appeals Court ruled that the mother and father would rotate school years, so that one parent gets the child during the school week and the other parent gets the child for the weekends for one year. Then the parents will reverse the schedule the next year. Both parents had asked for sole custody.

Joint custody is now the preferred and presumed custody arrangement in 26 states and the District of Columbia. And more than one out of five divorces has shared parenting arrangements, says a 1997 report from the National Center for Health Statistics.

Joint custody has become a preferred custody arrangement over the last 20 years or so. It is presumed to be the preferred custody arrangement under some state statutes. It also reflects the reality that in many situations, there have been de facto joint custody arrangements through the efforts of both parents to provide the best situation for their child post-divorce, even though one parent had been awarded sole or full custody.

While definitions of joint custody will vary, the common elements are that the parents share the legal responsibilities and the physical care and custody of their child. Joint custody arrangements can take many, many forms, and there are a multitude of factors for you to take into account when considering a joint custody arrangement including the ability to cooperate shared by you and your spouse, physical limitations, expenses, and your child's preferences and needs.

When was the last time that absent gross misconduct, abandonment or imprisonment by the other party sole custody of the minor children was awarded to your client? With the decreasing number of cases that are tried to conclusion in the family part, sole custody of the children in one or the other parent is almost unheard of. Has sole custody truly been done away with in all but the most extreme cases?

Notwithstanding what appears to be an unrestricted ability to fashion custodial arrangements in the best interest of the child, in the preamble to this statute, the Legislature is clear as to the public policy goals that guide the court's award. It states, "The Legislature finds and declares that it is in the public policy of this State to assure minor children of frequent and continuing contact with both parents after the parents have separated or dissolved their marriage and that it is in the public interest to encourage parents to share the rights and responsibilities of child rearing in order to effect this policy." Id. N.J.S.A. 9:2-4

Having one parent - the parent entrusted with the children during the majority of the time, the parent who knows the children best (knows their doctors and takes responsiblitey to take them, school schedules and after school activites, teachers, homework, clothing, preparing meals and other factors)- given the final say to make the decisions when no agreement is possible, has the salutary effect of ending litigation and reducing the court's intrusion into the family life. And after all, isn't that in the best interest of the children?

Whether by choice or out of necessity, more single men are taking active roles in parenting. According to the United States Census Bureau, 1,060,000 households were run by single fathers in 1980. By 1994, the number had doubled to 2,286,900. In1996, 12.4 million fathers were reported to be heads of households in the United States.

Historical Custody
A man in the 1800s could very well outlive his wife. Many women died during childbirth and the fathers along with other family members raised the children.

Divorce during this time was not common, but it did exist. When divorce occurred, fathers usually received custody of the children because men enjoyed a social status that women did not. Many men worked their own farms and did not need to leave their households to go to work. Courts saw fathers as better prepared to support children after divorces, and men received custody.

In years past, custody of minor children often automatically went to the mother, but with more than half of American mothers in the work force today, judges often decide on the child's best interest. Maricopa County (Arizona) Judge Kenneth Fields says, "New domestic relations judges are trainined to to be as blind to gender as possible in deciding custody."
Some men simply feel a need to nurture children, a longing that single women have fulfilled for decades.

The 1980s and 1990s have seen a rise in men who want to be single fathers by choice. Adoption is a very difficult and expensive process for single people and particularly for single fathers. Questions arise such as: How stable will the prospective home be? If the father must work, who will provide child care? Is a single man willing and able to raise a mixed-race child or a handicapped child? These are questions single women seeking to adopt have faced for years.

Employers, Society vs the Court System

Contrary to popular belief, the majority of discrimination in child custody is found, not in the court system, but with employers and society .Although many single mothers work full time, employers often hesitate to hire a single father. Most men are questioned about the responsibilities of holding a family together alone. Employers hesitate, knowing that work is not the single father's main priority. The same employer may hire a single mother but fails to realize that single fathers encounter problems just as single mothers do.

Stereotypes that cause some men to ridicule other men for taking on "women's work" when they could continue to lead carefree bachelor lives do not help single fathers. Newsweek reporter Jean Seligmann says.

Although the number of single fathers has increased dramatically in the last two decades, questions and doubts remain. A society that is taught that the mother is the nurturing parent and the father is the breadwinner and disciplinarian is slow to accept and adjust to a phenomenon such as single fathers. But with one of every two marriages failing, someone must provide children with a stable home. Sometimes that best someone is the father.

Sole custody is not commonly granted except in cases where the child is found to be abused by the unfit parent.


A Growing Phenomenon
Newsweek
Lawyers.com
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