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Correct! God knew that devil would fall. I'll let Matt Strong address this. ....... Just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that the person (angel) isn't free to make choices. Satan freely chose to rebel against God. God knew this would happen.
Excellent point, btroop, in addressing the original question. IMO the angels originally were created with a measure of choice, just as you and I are created with the power of choice. After Satan was cast out, sin could no longer enter heaven, so now the angels cannot sin and can only praise God. Whether God knew or not what choices Satan would make, did not make any difference; it was still Satan's choice and he will be punished accordingly.
Ahhh, Alpha, that is the biggest problem here. Not everyone believes that God is restricted by what the bible says is, or by Man's interpretation of, "His Word."
I'm afraid that if we keep looking for anyone to change their viewpoint on what God, wants/means/says based on the bible, that posters will always be sniping at one another.
Ahhh, Alpha, that is the biggest problem here. Not everyone believes that God is restricted by what the bible says is, or by Man's interpretation of, "His Word."
I'm afraid that if we keep looking for anyone to change their viewpoint on what God, wants/means/says based on the bible, that posters will always be sniping at one another.
I understand that Padgett.
Let me see if this illustrates my point:
About 2 years ago, I saw a kid in a Sam's Club on with a picture of George Bush on his t-shirt with the words under it "Not my President"
Now I find that humorous. Because unless that kid leaves the US and changes his citizenship, GWB IS his president. He doesn't have to like it. Doesn't even have to agree with it. BUT IT IS WHAT IT IS. Regardless if he agrees or not.
I don't know if that makes sense, but it's what I believe.
The Bible is what it is, regardless of what others think.
I know folks who say they can drive at .12, but the law says otherwise, ya know?
....."Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Lu 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it....."
The first is from the Old Testament, and the second was before the New Testament became a book.
So does that mean that we are to obey the laws of the OT? If so, shall we go back to animal sacrifice. stoning, marrying the death brother's widow?
Those, and many many others, including eating pork, were God's Law in the time of of the OT. If they "stand forever" then, are they, or are they not, still valid?
If Jesus came to fulfill the law, then God's Word didn't stand forever, did it?
If Jesus came to fulfill the law, then God's Word didn't stand forever, did it?
Jesus fulfilled the law, not destroyed it, and this was God's plan right from the beginning, because of man's fall. Everything in the OT pointed to this time. I don't see this as doing away with the timelessness of God's Word.
But it's not a crime until there's a law against it. We may know that it's wrong, but it's not a crime. And how do we know it's wrong? By God's law
Are you seriously suggesting that the only way humanity can discover that drunk driving is stupid and should be abolished as soon as possible is because God told you so?
Just being sensible has nothing to do with it?
Originally Posted by Visvaldis
Quote:
Evil cannot be measured, nor does a universally accepted definition exist.
Love seems to be universal. If that is the case evil would be the lack of love.
Originally Posted by cg81
Quote:
Not when viewed through the lens God has given us, His Word.
Which we humans interpret the way we see fit, because God won’t interfere anyway.
It seems to me that many people seem to confuse the bible with love. That would be like confusing a cookbook (theory) with eating (action/experience).
Are you seriously suggesting that the only way humanity can discover that drunk driving is stupid and should be abolished as soon as possible is because God told you so?
No, I'm not, in this literal sense. What I was suggesting is that the basic moral law (eg. do not kill, lie, cheat, steal, etc) was set in order by God. Most people, Christian or not, know that these things are "wrong", even if they don't recognize them as affecting their eternal wellbeing.
[quote=jeffncandace;1467605]God didn't create sin directly...but if God knew about all of this before it transpired then He is ultimately responsible for the fate of His creation!
I agree to a certain point. God DID create a way out of the sin problem and the solution was Jesus! Now free will comes into play. People can choose Jesus or not. God did MORE than His part, now the responsibility is back on mankind!
Well then, you don't believe God's word, which says quite clearly that God did create evil. Not calamity; evil.
I disagree. These scriptues that you and others have posted that allude to God creating evil are IMO poor in translation. The word 'Ra' (evil as you say) has a BROAD meaning. It is used many times to mean disaster NOT evil. Which to me is a huge difference. I think we are to use what we know of God and His nature and how OVER AND OVER in the bible its says God shuns evil, and God hates evil, and God is truth, God is Light. If God hates evil, then why would He create evil? That makes no sense.
God gives out punishment, and God may test people, but that IMO is not God creating evil. People may not agree with the punishment, but thats a different story.
קום ra` "evil, bad" - like tob which means "good" ra` has a wide and non-specific range of meaning. Unlike tob, of which Amos makes average use, ra` is more frequent in this book. It partners tob at 5:14-15 and 9:4; in 3:6 it refers to the "evil" or "disaster" which God will bring as punishment (as it does at 9:4 and by implication at least 9:10); 5:13 and 6:3 in differing words refer to an "evil time" or "evil day".
I believe God may manipulate senarios to accomplish His will, but IMO thats not evil. I believe God may put tests on those He loves (as in Abraham and Job) but that IMO is not evil. I believe God may punish the wicked, but that IMO is not evil.
Excellent point, btroop, in addressing the original question. IMO the angels originally were created with a measure of choice, just as you and I are created with the power of choice. After Satan was cast out, sin could no longer enter heaven, so now the angels cannot sin and can only praise God. Whether God knew or not what choices Satan would make, did not make any difference; it was still Satan's choice and he will be punished accordingly.
And so what tempted Lucifer? For as we already discussed, in order to have freewill you must have both good and evil. How can you make a choice with only one option? For Lucifer to have had freewill and CHOSEN the evil side there must have been something to tempt him.
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Are you seriously suggesting that the only way humanity can discover that drunk driving is stupid and should be abolished as soon as possible is because God told you so?
It seems to me that many people seem to confuse the bible with love. That would be like confusing a cookbook (theory) with eating (action/experience).
